Discovering Daredevil: The Real-Life Cases of Radar-Like Senses

[kiki_danc]

Daredevil Season 3 has been released at Netflix and it is just so good I've been trying to finish the 13 episodes in 3 nights.

It's about a blind lawyer who has radar like senses probably from brain plasticity where the real estate for vision were diverted to other senses like hearing.

I'd like to know what are the documented or proven cases of radar like sense. I read about a blind boy who whistles when riding a bike and he could "see" the surrounding by the echo from the sound. Or about some people who can feel the colors of objects by touching by ability to distinguish wavelength. Which of this is real? Please enumerate all proven cases such as this so we know what is real and what is heresay or not true.

 

[DaveC426913]

I read about a blind boy who whistles when riding a bike and he could "see" the surrounding by the echo from the sound.

Doable. (A bike is a bit bold, but easily done walking). You can learn to do this with practice.

Or about some people who can feel the colors of objects by touching by ability to distinguish wavelength

Almost certainly false. But I suspect there may be a little more to this story.

Please enumerate all proven cases such as this

Wishful thinking.

 

[kiki_danc]

Check this out (I googled "Blind boy whistle riding bike"):

http://discovermagazine.com/2015/july-aug/27-sonic-vision

What is your opinion?

 

[kiki_danc]

Check this out (I googled "Blind boy whistle riding bike"):

http://discovermagazine.com/2015/july-aug/27-sonic-vision

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What is your opinion?

For people who can adapt sounds into their visual cortex.. I wonder what is the resolution.. is it only for avoiding traffic when the blind rides bike? Or can it have enough resolution so they can also do fist fight?

Based on what you remember about Daredevil.. he didn't make clicking sound.. so what is the source of the echos? Maybe sounds from other sources? But if there is no sound, how could he 'see'? maybe from the sound of his heart beat or chest movement that can produce the signal? I'll watch Season 1 Episode 1 again tomorrow.

 

[Drakkith]

For people who can adapt sounds into their visual cortex.. I wonder what is the resolution.. is it only for avoiding traffic when the blind rides bike? Or can it have enough resolution so they can also do fist fight?

Not enough to do anything but identify large stationary objects at close range. Certainly not enough to identify details like where someone's fist or head is. Not only that, but the 'update frequency' (the rate of the clicks) is probably too low to detect motion in a timescale under a second or two. Not nearly fast enough to defend yourself against attacks that take much less than a second to arrive.

Based on what you remember about Daredevil.. he didn't make clicking sound.. so what is the source of the echos? Maybe sounds from other sources? But if there is no sound, how could he 'see'? maybe from the sound of his heart beat or chest movement that can produce the signal? I'll watch Season 1 Episode 1 again tomorrow.

Sci-fi magic. There is no real world explanation. You can say that he uses ambient noise or his heartbeat, but since his abilities don't match what is possible in the real world then the explanation doesn't really matter. It just has to be believable, not plausible.

 

[stevendaryl]

For people who can adapt sounds into their visual cortex.. I wonder what is the resolution.. is it only for avoiding traffic when the blind rides bike? Or can it have enough resolution so they can also do fist fight?

Based on what you remember about Daredevil.. he didn't make clicking sound.. so what is the source of the echos? Maybe sounds from other sources? But if there is no sound, how could he 'see'? maybe from the sound of his heart beat or chest movement that can produce the signal? I'll watch Season 1 Episode 1 again tomorrow.

I think it would have been annoying if he had been clicking throughout the fight scenes. I can imagine the bad guy stopping the fight, and saying: "Could you please stop clicking? It's so annoying!"

 

[kiki_danc]

I think it would have been annoying if he had been clicking throughout the fight scenes. I can imagine the bad guy stopping the fight, and saying: "Could you please stop clicking? It's so annoying!"

I'll re watch the Daredevil 2003 movie later and see if Marvel offers some explanation. I couldn't find it in season 1 episode 1.

 

[kiki_danc]

Not enough to do anything but identify large stationary objects at close range. Certainly not enough to identify details like where someone's fist or head is. Not only that, but the 'update frequency' (the rate of the clicks) is probably too low to detect motion in a timescale under a second or two. Not nearly fast enough to defend yourself against attacks that take much less than a second to arrive.
Sci-fi magic. There is no real world explanation. You can say that he uses ambient noise or his heartbeat, but since his abilities don't match what is possible in the real world then the explanation doesn't really matter. It just has to be believable, not plausible.

I watched the movie Daredevil 2003...

There is this monologue by Matt:

"I lost my sight but I got something back in return. My remaining four senses functioned with superhuman sharpness. But most amazing of all, my sense of sound gave off a kind of radar sense".

He has super hearing.. this made for example a drop of water or bird flapping able to produce radar signal that can bounce off objects making him have HD like visual resolution of the surrounding.

Now outside of Marvel Universe, can't ambient sound produce a mapping of the surrounding? What should be the strength of the sound before any map can be produced? Of course if there is super hearing, the sound could of small magnitude.. so what is the smallest magnitude of sound that can map the objects in the surrounding enough for the map to integrate it to his visual cortex?

 

[Drakkith]

Now outside of Marvel Universe, can't ambient sound produce a mapping of the surrounding?

Unfortunately our auditory system simply isn't built to provide resolution anywhere close to our visual resolution, so Daredevil's amazing powers are just not possible in the real world. Our eyes focus light down onto a region of high-density light detectors to give us a high resolution image. Our ears face sideways, do not focus sound waves to a tight point, and the geometry of the ear and the fact that we only have a single eardrum pretty much removes most spatial information you would get from the angle of the incoming waves. Instead our auditory system uses differences in loudness and arrival time to determine the direction a sound is coming from, which is far less accurate.

It doesn't matter how your brain wires itself since the rest of the auditory system simply isn't built to provide high resolution direction finding.

 

[kiki_danc]

Unfortunately our auditory system simply isn't built to provide resolution anywhere close to our visual resolution, so Daredevil's amazing powers are just not possible in the real world. Our eyes focus light down onto a region of high-density light detectors to give us a high resolution image. Our ears face sideways, do not focus sound waves to a tight point, and the geometry of the ear and the fact that we only have a single eardrum pretty much removes most spatial information you would get from the angle of the incoming waves. Instead our auditory system uses differences in loudness and arrival time to determine the direction a sound is coming from, which is far less accurate.

It doesn't matter how your brain wires itself since the rest of the auditory system simply isn't built to provide high resolution direction finding.

But if we used gadgets (which could have giant parabolic receivers all around it).. is it possible to map the surrounding using sound only? How small the intensity of sound before the gadget can pick up good resolution?

 

[DaveC426913]

But if we used gadgets (which could have giant parabolic receivers all around it).. is it possible to map the surrounding using sound only? How small the intensity of sound before the gadget can pick up good resolution?

Problem is, you need a single audio source to do that (or a sophisticated filtering processor).
Using ambient sound means the sources are all over the place at varying distances and angles.

 

[kiki_danc]

Problem is, you need a single audio source to do that (or a sophisticated filtering processor).
Using ambient sound means the sources are all over the place at varying distances and angles.

I wonder if someone has made a thesis where a single audio source is used for a personal radar that can image say the things in the room. This would be a cool toy. Any such device done before?

Also maybe Daredevil is really an android.

 

[DaveC426913]

I have this idea to build an echolocation simulation room for humans.

It's a big shipping container - no lights, totally dark - with speakers along the walls every few feet. You make clicking sounds into a mike and a processor sends the sound to every speaker, delayed a faction of a second based on your distance from it.

Essentially what it does it slow down the apparent speed of sound to a human detectable level - say 100ft/s. It would be the audio equivalent of airport runway landing lights.

You could navigate around such a room, finding doorways and avoiding obstacles by actively clicking and listening for the echos.

Facing an opening in a wall:

If you got good enough, you might even be able to read some very large letters. A 10 foot tall 'A' would make a unique audio signature.

I think this would be both highly entertaining and educational.

Some pitfalls:
1] Hand a mike to a kid that will echo what he says a hundred times. What will he do? Hmm. Which is why it will only sample the first 1/4 of a second of what he says. He'll learn quickly that short sharp noises are the only things that will work.
2] How do I make it profitable? You could only send one or two people in at a time. (Though it might be fun to get them to each create a unique sound that they can distinguish from the others.)

 

[Drakkith]

But if we used gadgets (which could have giant parabolic receivers all around it).. is it possible to map the surrounding using sound only? How small the intensity of sound before the gadget can pick up good resolution?

I'm sure it's possible. The smallest practical intensity would depend on the sensitivity and receiving area of the device, so I can't give you a single answer. But note that you're still limited to only picking up details that are more than 1-2 inches across if you're using audio frequencies. The ability to discern fine details falls off rapidly as the size of the details becomes smaller than the wavelength of the wave. This is true for both sound and light.

 

[kiki_danc]

I'm sure it's possible. The smallest practical intensity would depend on the sensitivity and receiving area of the device, so I can't give you a single answer. But note that you're still limited to only picking up details that are more than 1-2 inches across if you're using audio frequencies. The ability to discern fine details falls off rapidly as the size of the details becomes smaller than the wavelength of the wave. This is true for both sound and light.

What would it take to make the wavelength of sound smaller? Is there a version of particle accelerator that can make the wavelength of sound smaller?Also sonar images seem to show details of shipwrecks. Can't radar images also show such details. For example, if you aim radar at the 4 presidents monument at Mount Rushmore, what would the radar images show?

 

[DaveC426913]

What would it take to make the wavelength of sound smaller? Is there a version of particle accelerator that can make the wavelength of sound smaller?

Wavelength is the inverse of frequency. To make shorter wavelengths, you simply increase the frequency, This is why bats have a range up to 100,000Hz. They can echo-locate mosquitoes with sufficient accuracy to pick them out of the air.

*Fun facts which I just calculated.

1. 100,000Hz sounds like a ridiculously high frequency. But it's only 3 octaves above the human hearing range. Go figure.
2. To play a bat's sound on a piano, you'd need to add a mere 32 inches (5 octaves) to the right side of the keyboard.

Also sonar images seem to show details of shipwrecks.

Sure. With a resolution of a foot or so.

Can't radar images also show such details. For example, if you aim radar at the 4 presidents monument at Mount Rushmore, what would the radar images show?

Yes. Radar is not sound; it is electromagnetic in nature, and propagates a little less than one million times faster than sound. It has a frequency on the order of 0.2 to 40 billion Hz, making a wavelength on the order of metres down to millimetres.

 

[kiki_danc]

Wavelength is the inverse of frequency. To make shorter wavelengths, you simply increase the frequency, This is why bats have a range up to 100,000Hz. They can echo-locate mosquitoes with sufficient accuracy to pick them out of the air.

*Fun facts which I just calculated.

1. 100,000Hz sounds like a ridiculously high frequency. But it's only 3 octaves above the human hearing range. Go figure.
2. To play a bat's sound on a piano, you'd need to add a mere 32 inches (5 octaves) to the right side of the keyboard.

Sure. With a resolution of a foot or so.Yes. Radar is not sound; it is electromagnetic in nature, and propagates a little less than one million times faster than sound. It has a frequency on the order of 0.2 to 40 billion Hz, making a wavelength on the order of metres down to millimetres.

But radar cause detect ships and planes.. why can't it be used to image say the 4 president monument at Mount Rushmore? Unless you mean radar is only for detecting metals and not stones?

 

[Drakkith]

But radar cause detect ships and planes.. why can't it be used to image say the 4 president monument at Mount Rushmore?

It can be. That's what Dave said. It can be used to image something like Mount Rushmore down to roughly the millimeter level if you have the appropriate equipment at the appropriate range.

 

[DaveC426913]

why can't it be used to image say the 4 president monument at Mount Rushmore?

Of course it can. Not sure how you thought I was saying it couldn't be.

 

[kiki_danc]

It can be. That's what Dave said. It can be used to image something like Mount Rushmore down to roughly the millimeter level if you have the appropriate equipment at the appropriate range.

Please share detailed photography taken with radar imaging. I want to know how i looks like. I couldn't seem to find any at google.

 

[russ_watters]

Please share detailed photography taken with radar imaging. I want to know how i looks like. I couldn't seem to find any at google.

 

[DaveC426913]

I think these are radar images.
http://www.majumderfoundation.org/Study_Purdue/Majumder_SAR_Tutorial_IEEE2010_Final.pdf

 

[kiki_danc]

I think these are radar images.
http://www.majumderfoundation.org/Study_Purdue/Majumder_SAR_Tutorial_IEEE2010_Final.pdf

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These look like photography. I wonder if there are consumer radar camera that can take these like IR photography. It would be a good hobbyist stuff.

 

[russ_watters]

I wonder if there are consumer radar camera that can take these...

There aren't.

 

[kiki_danc]

There aren't.

Why, because so expensive? So was the first visual camera. I wonder how radar photography would look like if you shoot the streets or inside mall. Would some objects become transparent. If you encounter such radar photographs. I want to see the transparency aspects of them.

 

[russ_watters]

Why, because so expensive? So was the first visual camera. I wonder how radar photography would look like if you shoot the streets or inside mall. Would some objects become transparent. If you encounter such radar photographs. I want to see the transparency aspects of them.

Well, the picture I posted above is of Venus, so the clouds were completely transparent.

 

[kiki_danc]

Well, the picture I posted above is of Venus, so the clouds were completely transparent.

Ok..but radio waves can pass through people so maybe they can just see the bones or muscles (or weapons)? Is this the technology they use now at subways or airports where all passing people are automatically scanned while walking?

 

[Drakkith]

Ok..but radio waves can pass through people so maybe they can just see the bones or muscles (or weapons)? Is this the technology they use now at subways or airports where all passing people are automatically scanned while walking?

Basically. You probably won't be able to see inside the human body very well, but yes, there are certain radio/microwave frequencies that can pass through clothing and allow security to see things like weapons that might be hidden underneath.

 

[kiki_danc]

Basically. You probably won't be able to see inside the human body very well, but yes, there are certain radio/microwave frequencies that can pass through clothing and allow security to see things like weapons that might be hidden underneath.

Won't it be cheaper or equally expensive as the following:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...en-blob/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f642b9bc826a

"The device, which does not emit any type of radiation, searches for weapons by examining the “naturally-occurring waves produced by a person’s body,” according to the Metro statement. If a person has concealed an object under clothing or has something strapped to their body, a black spot or color indicator will appear on the computer-generated avatar."

What naturally-occurring waves produced by a person's body were they talking about? If they use radar. what do you think they can pick up and why is this technology not developed or explored?

 

[Drakkith]

Won't it be cheaper or equally expensive as the following:

I haven't a clue.

What naturally-occurring waves produced by a person's body were they talking about?

I assume they are using some wavelength in the infrared range, since that is the dominant radiation that our body produces. But I really don't know.

If they use radar. what do you think they can pick up and why is this technology not developed or explored?

First, I now realize that I thought you were talking about another technology when you mentioned people be scanned earlier. I thought you were talking about the scan you sometimes encounter at airports where you step into a little booth and they do a body scan. That technology is 'active', not passive, and it probably uses microwaves, though I admit I don't know the exact frequencies they use.

So they basically already use radar, so it has already been developed and explored. What can they pick up? I believe they can pick up just about anything you may have strapped to you or in your clothing with the exception of certain materials which are transparent to microwaves.

 

[profbuxton]

Regarding human echo location, there was a scifi tale about a society who had to live underground after a disaster(nuke war) and tale depicted them evovling to use "clickstones" which they used to "click" together(one handed) and find their way around in dark tunnels. Eventually the hero found his way out into the light and all was good. Can't imagine what a communal gathering would have "sounded " like. Don't know how they distinguished one click from another.

 

[DaveC426913]

Can't imagine what a communal gathering would have "sounded " like. Don't know how they distinguished one click from another.

I don't think that would be nearly as hard as you expect.

It might seem like a jumble to the untrained ear, but
1] every pair of rocks will be different sizes, and your clicks will have a unique signature,
2] you're expecting your clicks, they will be an immediate extension of your own click: Like Click-ick-ck-k.
3] I don't imagine they are clicking every second. Perfect overlaps would not be as common as all that.
4] if you're in a communal setting, you don't need to check for obstructions much. You'll know where other people are, and they won't be inside walls.