Why is life the ultimate miracle?

[olde drunk]

why do we need miracles?

In many threads people say that when they personally witness a miracle they will accept that there is a god or some such.

now, when i plant a kernel of corn in the ground, water and nurture the kernel, a corn stalk will appear. yes, nature did the work.

i would be willing to bet that in some laboratory there is a detailed list of all the chemicals and minerals, etc contained in that little seed. unfortunately, with all this information, technical expertise, etc we can not build a seed from scratch.

to me, this is the miracle of life. life is the obvious miracle that no one can duplicate. why must we look for any other proof of a higher power?

until we can create life, i will continue to believe that there is more to our existence than just one very, very short lifetime. being able feel, sense, think and dream is magic!

let's invest our time and energy investigating this magic. lord knows (lol) what we may find (super strings and fruit loops?).

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[arildno]

While I whole-heartedly concur with your "love&peace"-message, you really do misuse the word "proof". Please keep such terms uncontaminated in the future.

 

[olde drunk]

While I whole-heartedly concur with your "love&peace"-message, you really do misuse the word "proof". Please keep such terms uncontaminated in the future.

i am sorry, but i do not see this word or exercise as worthy of sanctity. all proofs are relative and in actuality you can not prove anything. you can "agree" that something is or isn't this or that. imho, that don't prove nuttin!

please spare us your academic respect for a term that needs to be defined every time it is used.

i'd rather you spend your time thinking about whether or not you should respect people more than words.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[arildno]

So where's the axioms your proof follows from?

 

[Philocrat]

In many threads people say that when they personally witness a miracle they will accept that there is a god or some such.

now, when i plant a kernel of corn in the ground, water and nurture the kernel, a corn stalk will appear. yes, nature did the work.

i would be willing to bet that in some laboratory there is a detailed list of all the chemicals and minerals, etc contained in that little seed. unfortunately, with all this information, technical expertise, etc we can not build a seed from scratch.

to me, this is the miracle of life. life is the obvious miracle that no one can duplicate. why must we look for any other proof of a higher power?

until we can create life, i will continue to believe that there is more to our existence than just one very, very short lifetime. being able feel, sense, think and dream is magic!

let's invest our time and energy investigating this magic. lord knows (lol) what we may find (super strings and fruit loops?).

love&peace,
olde drunk

There is no such thing as a miracle...our human visual limitations are being naively mistaken for perceiving a miracle. It's very sad that in the 21st century we still think and behave in this way. Very sad...yes. very sad!

 

[olde drunk]

So where's the axioms your proof follows from?

i'm sorry, i do not know how to do that process. back in the 50's a high school diploma was considered a success. i am too olde, now, to learn a technique for discussion.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[olde drunk]

Philocrat: what do you call 'life'?

it is naive to think it is more than a chemical - biological reaction? i prefer to be naive! it's more fun and provides me answers to questions that would, otherwise, go lacking.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[Royce]

"None are so blind as those who will not see."
"None are so deaf..."
...ect, etc, etc...

You are right olde drunk and I agree with you whole heartedly; but what do we two old f__ts know?

 

[fleetze]

olde drunk wrote:

it's more fun [being naive] and provides me answers to questions that would, otherwise, go lacking.

I believe in a magical elephant god named snarfwidgett, he is responsible for everything. I have no evidence supporting his existence but it's more fun and provides me with answers that would, otherwise, go lacking.


Royce wrote:

"None are so blind as those who will not see."
"None are so deaf..."
...ect, etc, etc...

Are you actually going to post any evidence supporting your belief? Or, i mean, was that quote supposed to convince me of miracles? etc etc..

 

[wuliheron]

mir·a·cle ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mr-kl)
n.
An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God: “Miracles are spontaneous, they cannot be summoned, but come of themselves” (Katherine Anne Porter).
One that excites admiring awe. See Synonyms at wonder.
A miracle play.

Existence is the only miracle I need, quite literally. However, I really do appreciate the ability to be aware of the miracle of existence, and all the other minor miracles as well. Whether they are supernatural or not I cannot say, but then, either way it doesn't matter. All that matters is to accept the miracle as a miracle.

 

[Iacchus32]

Philocrat: what do you call 'life'?

it is naive to think it is more than a chemical - biological reaction? i prefer to be naive! it's more fun and provides me answers to questions that would, otherwise, go lacking.

love&peace,
olde drunk

Perhaps the miracle, like wuliheron suggests, is in the fact that we are conscious and able to witness it. While it's one thing to go through life not knowing you exist, say like in the case with an automaton, and it's another to fully experience it.

 

[Royce]

Are you actually going to post any evidence supporting your belief? Or, i mean, was that quote supposed to convince me of miracles? etc etc..

No I am not going to post any support nor am I trying to convince you of anything. The statement that the quotes make stand by themselves and that fact that you need support and don't understand what I or olde drunk are saying is proof of their point.

To spell it out, if the existence of life, your existence, and your consciousness is not enough to convince you of miracles then what would be enough. If you refuse to see or hear even that, what chance do I or anyone else have of proving anything to you.

"Those who think that they know it all are a constant source of aggrivation to those of us who do."

 

[olde drunk]

Thank you Royce. It is a shame that today's intellectuals want to engage in debates, asking for proof and then want proof of the proof. debates are fun in their own right. unfortunately, we get lost in the nuances of debate and lose sight of our goal.

i repeat, for those who need or want a miracle to believe in a broader reality or a god, YOU are the miracle. it requires nothing more. if you do not believe in yourself you will look to a religion (including atheism) and it will fail you. you will look to the world leaders and they will disappoint you.

with all our advances, we can not create life. ergo, it is magic. accept it, enjoy it and do what you believe is important. from what i have seen and experienced there is no need for salvation or redemption. why get lost looking outside yourself for answers?? we, each of us, has a personal connection with this greater reality. why should someone else's connection be better or work better than you own?

relax, life's more fun when you sense it's mystery and play with your reality creation. hey, my gods and goddesses told me that all we need is the golden rule. works for me.

love&peace,
olde drunk
ps: i might change it to olde fart (that'd be fun)

 

[Iacchus32]

"You are right olde drunk and I agree with you whole heartedly; but what do we two old f__ts know?

Hey, at least with an old f**t, the smell has had a chance to dissipate!

 

[russ_watters]

...with all this information, technical expertise, etc we can not build a seed from scratch.

to me, this is the miracle of life. life is the obvious miracle that no one can duplicate. why must we look for any other proof of a higher power?

There are a lot of things about nature that we cannot duplicate. Why does that imply a creator? Do you consider humans to be that technically advanced that we should be able to duplicate anything that can be duplicated? We can build many molecules from scratch. Maybe its just a matter of time before we can build a kernel of corn? But, do you think we'll ever be able to build a planet from scratch? Would that necessarily imply a creator?

until we can create life, i will continue to believe that there is more to our existence than just one very, very short lifetime.

We can build custom viruses and alter the genetic code of a wide variety of life to customize it. Is that close enough?

let's invest our time and energy investigating this magic.

If it really is magic or miracles, then no amount of scientific investigation will be able to explain it.

Science is not capable of doing what you ask of it and that is not a failure of science, its a mis-application of science by you.

 

[olde drunk]

There are a lot of things about nature that we cannot duplicate. Why does that imply a creator? Do you consider humans to be that technically advanced that we should be able to duplicate anything that can be duplicated? We can build many molecules from scratch. Maybe its just a matter of time before we can build a kernel of corn? But, do you think we'll ever be able to build a planet from scratch? Would that necessarily imply a creator? We can build custom viruses and alter the genetic code of a wide variety of life to customize it. Is that close enough? If it really is magic or miracles, then no amount of scientific investigation will be able to explain it.

Science is not capable of doing what you ask of it and that is not a failure of science, its a mis-application of science by you.

1. i did not say there was a creator. i said that being 'alive' proves to me that there is more to our existence than just our physicality.

2. we can customize our bodies without genetic engineering. genetic engineering is just another form of manipulation. BUT, can you explain how or why the one cell is alive and another just a pile of matter?

3. so, accepting that it is magical to be alive, why do we ask science to explain 'life'.

i submit that if we explore our inner senses about this energy form, we will learn more than by trying to define it in scientific terms.

love&peace,
olde drunk that farts (my new amer-indian name)

ps: Mr. Watters, did you or do you have a relative named Pete that worked at General Accident, lived off of Cheltenham Ave, and played pinochle?

 

[Royce]

There are a lot of things about nature that we cannot duplicate. Why does that imply a creator?

There are also a lot of things that nature can not duplicate on its own.
Life is one of those things. It takes life to reproduce life. Nature cannot and does not create life spontaniously all on its own.

Yes, to some of us, thiis implies something more, a God, a Creator, a Collective Consciousness; whatever one wishes to call it. Some of us have personal experiences that affirm this; but, even thought they are emperical experiences to us we can not prove them to others. If not a Creator then what? Magic and miracles are just words to describe that which cannot be explained by ordinary words or physical phenomena.

Do you consider humans to be that technically advanced that we should be able to duplicate anything that can be duplicated? We can build many molecules from scratch. Maybe its just a matter of time before we can build a kernel of corn? But, do you think we'll ever be able to build a planet from scratch? Would that necessarily imply a creator? We can build custom viruses and alter the genetic code of a wide variety of life to customize it. Is that close enough?

No, that is not close enough. It isn't life.

If it really is magic or miracles, then no amount of scientific investigation will be able to explain it.

Science is not capable of doing what you ask of it and that is not a failure of science, its a mis-application of science by you.

Now you got it! See wasn't that easy. Do not attempt to mis-apply science to a field of knowledge that is not science and is beyound the realm of science. As olde drunk said; "why get lost looking outside yourself for answers? we, each of us, has a personal connection with this greater reality." Don't look outside of yourself to find that which is inside yourself.
It ain't there! Try instead looking where it is. You have a much better chance of finding it looking for it where it is rather than looking where it aint with eyes that can't see it anyway.

 

[fleetze]

Royce wrote:

No I am not going to post any support nor am I trying to convince you of anything.

:laughing: Yet he continues with how I'm to stubborn for him to "prove" anything to me-

The statement that the quotes make stand by themselves and that fact that you need support and don't understand what I or olde drunk are saying is proof of their point.

So anytime someone doesn't understand you, your point is "proven"? :laughing:

You said in your first quote you cannot support your reason for belief in the supernatural, so what is there for me to understand? Don't expect others to believe you if you can't back anything up.

By your logic, I could say whatever crazy ass theory or idea popped in my head with Zero evidence to support it, and get mad when people "don't understand" what I'm trying to say.


olde drunk wrote:

It is a shame that today's intellectuals want to engage in debates, asking for proof and then want proof of the proof.

Debate? What is there to debate? You have given 0 evidence for me to look at regarding why you believe in the supernatural. You want me to just "understand" you. I'm sorry, but without evidence you want me to simply have faith in what you're saying, and I can't do that.

1. i did not say there was a creator. i said that being 'alive' proves to me that there is more to our existence than just our physicality.

Beauty in things lies in the mind which ponders them.
--Hume

2. we can customize our bodies without genetic engineering. genetic engineering is just another form of manipulation. BUT, can you explain how or why the one cell is alive and another just a pile of matter?

It's all piles of matter, olde drunk. Life is certainly a useful word. We use it everyday in our society, but since there is no single characteristic that defines life, we have a gray area of semi-life that certain viruses and proteins fit into. What makes something alive? If it has enough characteristics to fit todays model of what is and is not alive. You assume some sort of unexplainable magic is at work. All the processes and chemical reactions that power the cells in your body have been explained through observation and experimentation. We can see these results consistently, this is science. Adding in another driving force, aka your miracles, is at this point unecessary. I could understand you saying "what makes something alive?" 200 years ago, but saying that now means you dismiss the consistent and tried and true results that the scientific method has given us. That's like me seeing a bicycle ridden and assuming it is pushed by some extraplanar force.

3. so, accepting that it is magical to be alive, why do we ask science to explain 'life'.

Most scientists do Not accept that it is magical to be alive.
And your #'s 1 and 2 certainly are not convincing reason to believe so.

Royce wrote:

It takes life to reproduce life.

What created the first "life"? (where "life" is your definition of life)

Nature cannot and does not create life spontaniously all on its own.

In absence of evidence, is it Okay to substitute in magic and the supernatural? Or do you have convincing evidence that something supernatural is at play here?

No I am not going to post any support nor am I trying to convince you of anything.

Nope.. I guess not.

Do not attempt to mis-apply science to a field of knowledge that is not science and is beyound the realm of science.

This "field of knowledge" is basically whatever Royce and olde fart "feel" is right in their "hearts"...



Let's all start making our points like Royce and olde fart do--

"I believe in miracles!"

Why?

"Because I feel it in my tummy!"

Is that supposed to convince me?

"Yes, I... I FEEL it.. why can't you understand?"

Because you have not given me any reason to believe you.

"You young kids with your..your evidence and your SCIENCE..You'll never understand that Truth that miracles are real!"



Well I am CONVINCED! :laughing:

 

[Artorius]

Nature cannot and does not create life spontaniously all on its own.

Umm...it did. We're here, aren't we? I mean, if it didn't happen on its own, in accordance with the physical principles that govern the operation of the natural universe, then I probably wouldn't be here...typing this...

to some of us, thiis implies something more, a God, a Creator, a Collective Consciousness; whatever one wishes to call it.

The belief in an invisible magical creature that is supernatural or beyond the realm of knowledge, a creature that is fundamentally unverifiable, unfalsifiable, and based entirely upon the fleeting notion of faith, has no place in science, because it does nothing for science.

If anything, such a notion grinds scientific progress to a halt, as it destroys any motivation for a person to seek the truth about the natural universe. Why seek the truth when it is already known, a priori, to be the "will" of a magical invisible creature? Just bow down and worship it, live in fear and ignorance of it, and wait for death. Yeah, this accomplishes a lot.

The fact is, so long as there are a few brave people to pursue science as a career, there will always be scientific progress. This progress will eventually render belief in "miracles" and supernatural concepts (and the detrimental effects of them) obsolete and eventually extinct.

 

[Tom McCurdy]

Life is one of those things. It takes life to reproduce life. Nature cannot and does not create life spontaniously all on its own.
.

Actually it seems to happen when mulidimensional membranes collide

 

[olde drunk]

I do not believe that anyone was trying to minimize the value of science. my problem is that science can observe and explain the effects of an event, not the nature or source of the event.

while we accept gravity as an attraction between the mass of objects, science can not explain why. within the broader reality, gravity may be a totally different animal than we as humans can understand. if fact, recent observations violate our understanding of gravity.

gravity is a force, we accept and measure it's effects. IMHO, life (consciousness, awareness, spirit, soul) is a force that we observe and are unwilling to accept as being important to science. if i as an observer of an event influence the outcome of that event, i must exert force. is it my consciousness that reaches out and makes the change??

my life force is evidence of 'more'. personally, i don't care if it's string cheese, brains or fruit loops. ironically, hard core scientists can be considered as the other side of the bible banger coin.

get ready to write me off as a complete nut. is it possible that a black hole is nothing more than an 'idea' from another dimension reaching out and sucking in everything in its area to form a physical materialization of that 'idea'. just a playful thought.

love&peace,
olde drunk that farts

 

[Royce]

Royce wrote:
Yet he continues with how I'm to stubborn for him to "prove" anything to me-

Again I am not trying to prove anything. I can't. All I am doing is offering support to the original post by olde drunk by making an unsubstantiated obsevation; " It take life to produce life."

You said in your first quote you cannot support your reason for belief in the supernatural, so what is there for me to understand? Don't expect others to believe you if you can't back anything up.

By your logic, I could say whatever crazy ass theory or idea popped in my head with Zero evidence to support it, and get mad when people "don't understand" what I'm trying to say.

Neither olde drunk nor I mentioned anything "supernatural". Nor do I expect anyone to believe anything, "proven or not" I simply made some supportive observations. I know full well that our positions and opinions are unproveable and open to ridicule by scientific types; but, then scientific types have a long history of ridiculing any and everything and that they don't understand or that is not the favored theory written in all of the textbooks.

Nor does logic or theory have anything to do with this topic. This aint rocket surgery this is metaphysics.