This description of orbits seems wrong to me

  • Thread starter Doug1943
  • Start date
  • Tags
    Orbits
In summary: This is actually what happens with projectiles in the real world. You can fire a cannon at a target and the projectile will follow an elliptical arc, with the apex of the ellipse being at the target. If you fire a cannon at a target that's too close, the projectile will follow a hyperbolic path and eventually fly off into space. But if you fire a cannon at a target that's too far away, the projectile will follow a parabolic path and eventually hit the target.In summary, this website provides a description of orbits along the lines of Newton's cannon. It is a poor description.
  • #1
Doug1943
37
5
and I would be grateful if those who understand classical mechanics, in particular the physics of orbital motion, could visit this link -- https://earthkam.ucsd.edu/resources/students_orbital_mechanics#shuttle_stays_in_orbit -- and read the description of the 'four cases' by which a spacecraft may stay in orbit. I must be misunderstanding something, but it seems nonsensical to me -- cases A and B show it crashing to the ground and not achieving orbit at all (and cases C and D also seem wrong, for different reasons).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #2
Yeah, it's really badly worded on B, while A is just wrong. C and D look fine to me, though.
 
  • #3
The wording is bad, especially in A which makes sense only if one thinks of Earth's centre of mass rather than the globe of the planet. But then any speed is "enough speed".

Giving it the benefit of the doubt, I think the approach is to explain that all cases are technically orbits(around the centre of mass of the Earth), only in A and B the orbits intersect with the Earth's surface.
In that sense, the ballistic path of any projectile(e.g., rocks, bullets) is a section of an orbit.

IMO, the proper way would be to merge A and B together(there's no qualitative difference), explain that all flight paths are ellipses with Earth's centre of mass in one of the foci, and that the velocity determines whether the periapsis will be above or below the surface. Circular orbit to be mentioned as a special case.
 
Last edited:
  • #4
Well, yes ... I suppose all cases of bodies in motion are, if we don't abstract away anything at all, actually cases of many-body paths, and not even ellipses or any other conic section, which assume just two centers of mass. But we usually abstract out enough to allow us to focus on interesting special cases: thus rifle bullets and baseballs follow, in our consideration of their paths, parabolas, although 'really' their paths are not quite parabolas, even after removing the effect of air resistance. And it seems perverse to use the word 'orbit' for a path that does not actually ... orbit.

And note that this site is supposed to be a site to get school children interested in science. (Looking at a previous section, I suspect that the task of writing up this section of the site got given to an over-zealous graduate student.)
 
  • #5
That website provides (or rather, attempts to provide) a description of orbits along the lines of Newton's cannon. It is admittedly a poor description.

Imagine an airless, non-rotating planet with a single tall mountain. Imagine a cannon emplaced atop that mountain. Imagine that one can increase the amount of charge (gunpowder) placed in the cannon, without limit.

With a tiny amount of charge, the cannonball will follow what appears to be a parabolic arc and eventually land somewhere on the mountain. If you keep increasing the charge with each shot, eventually the cannonball will fall clear of the mountain and hit somewhere on the featureless plain out of which the mountain arises.

Increase the charge even more and you can no longer pretend that featureless plain is a plane. It's the surface of a curved planet. The path followed by the cannonball no longer looks like a parabolic arc. It instead looks like an elliptical arc. If you look back, that supposed parabolic arc that the cannonball followed with a lesser charge is actually an elliptical arc as well. Increase the charge even more an the cannonball strikes the planet a quarter way round the planet from the mountain, then 3/8 the way around, and eventually, just shy of half way around.

Now when you increase the charge something rather different happens. The cannonball's altitude decreases at first, but when it reaches the antipode (halfway around point), the altitude starts increasing. The cannonball does not hit the planet. Instead it falls all of the way around the planet and will eventually hit the cannon if you don't move it out of the way. The cannonball is in orbit!

If you keep increasing the charge you will find that the altitude at the antipode keeps increasing. Increase the charge enough and the cannonball will maintain the same altitude throughout its flight. Increase it even more and the height at the antipode exceeds the height of the mountain + cannon.

At this point you'll notice something else happening. With every increase in charge, it takes the cannonball longer and longer to make its round the planet trip. Increase the charge even more and the cannonball won't return, ever. The path now is parabolic, with the cannonball heading off to infinity rather than following a closed path. Increase the charge even more and the path becomes hyperbolic.
 

Related to This description of orbits seems wrong to me

1. How do orbits work?

Orbits are the result of the balance between the forward motion of an object and the force of gravity pulling it towards a central body, such as a planet or star. This force of gravity causes the object to constantly change direction, resulting in a curved path known as an orbit.

2. Why does this description of orbits seem wrong?

This description may seem wrong because it goes against our intuition of how objects should move. We are used to seeing objects move in straight lines rather than curved paths. However, in the presence of a strong gravitational force, such as from a planet or star, objects will follow a curved path.

3. How do orbits help us understand the universe?

Understanding orbits is crucial in understanding the motion of objects in our solar system and beyond. By studying orbits, we can determine the gravitational forces at play and make predictions about the behavior of celestial bodies. This knowledge also helps us in space exploration and satellite communication.

4. Can orbits change over time?

Yes, orbits can change over time due to various factors such as the influence of other objects, external forces, and the object's own propulsion. For example, the orbit of a planet may change slightly due to the gravitational pull of a passing asteroid.

5. What is the shape of an orbit?

The shape of an orbit can vary depending on the speed and direction of the object's motion, as well as the strength of the gravitational force. In general, orbits can be elliptical, circular, or parabolic. The shape of an orbit is determined by the object's velocity and the specific conditions of its orbiting body.

Similar threads

Replies
86
Views
4K
Replies
62
Views
5K
Replies
10
Views
1K
Replies
4
Views
661
  • Other Physics Topics
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • Quantum Physics
Replies
15
Views
2K
  • Advanced Physics Homework Help
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • Quantum Interpretations and Foundations
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • Sci-Fi Writing and World Building
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • Special and General Relativity
Replies
8
Views
1K
Back
Top