The Power of Curses: How Divine Intervention Can Keep Objects In Place

[DaveC426913]

So, Uther Pendragon declares "None shall wield Excalibur but me!" and embeds the sword in the stone, where it remains despite the best efforts of the mightiest of Knights. How can this be?

Well, Uther put a curse on it. He called upon the gods. "Hey gods, I've been good to you. I want this thing to happen." That's what a curse is. The gods said "mmmmm sounds reasonable, OK. We will keep a grip on that sword for you."

I can get behind this. The only required premise of the story is that gods exist. From that everything else works tickety-boo. It is simple to picture some god devoting a molecule of his will to reach down from heaven and place an invisible finger on the sword, such that it cannot moved by man.
Now, Thor.

Odin declares "Only he who is worthy shall wield Mjölnir!" and embeds the hammer in the ground, where it remains despite the mightiest efforts of humans and fallen gods.

Who enforces it? What higher power does Odin, the King of Gods call upon to grant him his request?

 

[FlexGunship]

who enforces it? What higher power does odin, the king of gods call upon to grant him his request?

yhwh?

 

[FlexGunship]

So, Uther Pendragon declares "None shall wield Excalibur but me!" and embeds the sword in the stone, where it remains despite the best efforts of the mightiest of Knights. How can this be?

Well, Uther put a curse on it. He called upon the gods. "Hey gods, I've been good to you. I want this thing to happen." That's what a curse is. The gods said "mmmmm sounds reasonable, OK. We will keep a grip on that sword for you."

I can get behind this. The only required premise of the story is that gods exist. From that everything else works tickety-boo. It is simple to picture some god devoting a molecule of his will to reach down from heaven and place an invisible finger on the sword, such that it cannot moved by man.



Now, Thor.

Odin declares "Only he who is worthy shall wield Mjölnir!" and embeds the hammer in the ground, where it remains despite the mightiest efforts of humans and fallen gods.

Who enforces it? What higher power does Odin, the King of Gods call upon to grant him his request?

Joking aside (let's get serious now), perhaps a curse could be implicit to the object. Maybe the mechanics of a curse don't rely on a super-being for enforcement. This might work if you believe that a certain set of words or perhaps an ineffable quality of the person lends special exception to the laws of physics.

By these rules even a god could be cursed.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I've always taken it that most mythologies (including the Judeo-Christian one which starts with a God ordering another entity) such as Greek, Roman and Norse have the universe as a separate supplicant entity under the Gods. I.e. God's are those who have the power to order the universe around and it will oblige. Odin, as king of the Gods, fulfils the role of God King in Norse mythology and thus his orders would have more of an effect than those of Thor and others.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Excalibur was pulled from the stone by Arthur. So much for Uther Pendragon and his bargain basement curses. Odin is the man (can you say that?) as no one ever pulled mjölnir out of the ground. This fact was immortalized in song by Peter, Paul, and Mary.

 

[BobG]

I would assume the physics of both curses actually work very similar to how a Chinese finger trap works.

For excalibur, brute force of the strongest men wouldn't work, but a weak boy was able to remove the sword because he didn't rely on brute force.

Similarly, stomping on the gas when your car won't go up an icy hill seldom works. One would probably have better results by lightly holding in the brakes with only a slightly less light touch on the gas. The slight pressure on the brakes simulates a limited slip differential and forces at least some of the engine's power to go the wheel that's spinning slower (or not spinning at all in the case of no traction at all for the spinning tire).

Finesse can sometimes beat brute strength.

 

[DaveC426913]

yhwh?

So, your model is that even the gods are lesser gods to the One God.

 

[FlexGunship]

So, your model is that even the gods are lesser gods to the One God.

Yeah... and YHWH reports to Neo from the Matrix who, in turn, reports to Catbert, the evil head of human resources.

 

[DaveC426913]

Joking aside (let's get serious now), perhaps a curse could be implicit to the object. Maybe the mechanics of a curse don't rely on a super-being for enforcement. This might work if you believe that a certain set of words or perhaps an ineffable quality of the person lends special exception to the laws of physics.

By these rules even a god could be cursed.

Yes, I follow your logic. That there isn't a nigh-omnipotent being managing the curse, the curse is a mechanism that has been set up and executed.

The trouble I have with this is that the mechanics of the curse are dependent on a judgment call. How can you imbue the object with the ability to judge that Thor has become worthy by an act of selflessness? No matter how much you simplify it, something or someone is
a] watching Thor's actions and
b] deciding they qualify.

 

[DaveC426913]

I would assume the physics of both curses actually work very similar to how a Chinese finger trap works.

For excalibur, brute force of the strongest men wouldn't work, but a weak boy was able to remove the sword because he didn't rely on brute force.

Similarly, stomping on the gas when your car won't go up an icy hill seldom works. One would probably have better results by lightly holding in the brakes with only a slightly less light touch on the gas. The slight pressure on the brakes simulates a limited slip differential and forces at least some of the engine's power to go the wheel that's spinning slower (or not spinning at all in the case of no traction at all for the spinning tire).

Finesse can sometimes beat brute strength.

But you haven't addressed how the curse is dispelled. What changed such that Arthur could lift the sword? Well, some sentient being watching over the sword approved of him. We're OK with this because Gods do exist and control things.

But what changed such that Thor could wield the hammer? Who made the judgment call and released it?

 

[FlexGunship]

Yes, I follow your logic. That there isn't a nigh-omnipotent being managing the curse, the curse is a mechanism that has been set up and executed.

The trouble I have with this is that the mechanics of the curse are dependent on a judgment call. How can you imbue the object with the ability to judge that Thor has become worthy by an act of selflessness? No matter how much you simplify it, something or someone is
a] watching Thor's actions and
b] deciding they qualify.

Hmm, I can see what you're saying. The curse, itself, would have to have an innate moral sense if there's no custodial curse curator. Perhaps these types of things are overseen by some Bureau of Curses which makes the decision but doesn't have the ability to carry out the act itself; it would be like the court issuing a ruling which is upheld by the police. In this case, the court is a Bureau of Curses and the police is the mechanism implicit to the curse.

EDIT: All offices are elected... none are appointed.
DOUBLE EDIT: Except in the case of abdication, retirement, or forced expulsion in which case a replacement can be appointed directly by the chairman of the bureau itself.
TRIPLE EDIT: The chairman's choice must be vetted by the bureau and the appointment must be approved by a simple majority of members in a vote held on the second Tuesday of each month.
QUADRUPLE EDIT: If the second Tuesday is a holiday, then the vote may take place on the subsequent Wednesday.

 

[Ben Niehoff]

Couldn't Odin himself watch over Mjollnir? Maybe his "curse" was more an announcement of his intentions.

 

[FlexGunship]

Couldn't Odin himself watch over Mjollnir? Maybe his "curse" was more an announcement of his intentions.

Don't be ridiculous! People don't just announce what they're going to do and then do it!

Grr... now I'm going to hit the "Submit Reply" button.

 

[BobG]

But you haven't addressed how the curse is dispelled. What changed such that Arthur could lift the sword? Well, some sentient being watching over the sword approved of him. We're OK with this because Gods do exist and control things.

But what changed such that Thor could wield the hammer? Who made the judgment call and released it?

Nothing had to change in order for Arthur to remove the sword. The only criteria was to avoid pulling so hard that they created a vacuum that sucked the underlying material in the rock ever tighter on the sword.

The method used to remove the sword was indicative of the type of methods the remover would apply to ruling England. Whoever happened along and was of a personality type that didn't first resort to brute force or violence could have removed the sword and been the true king of England. England being a brutish place at that time, it was just rare to find someone who might rule with wisdom and creativity rather than by brute force alone. (In other words, everyone else in England at that time was simply too stupid to figure out how to remove the sword.)

I don't know anything about Thor Hammer. Is he related to MC Hammer?

 

[DaveC426913]

Couldn't Odin himself watch over Mjollnir? Maybe his "curse" was more an announcement of his intentions.

He promptly fell into a coma.

Also, it seems pretty plain that is is not omniscient.

 

[DaveC426913]

Nothing had to change in order for Arthur to remove the sword. The only criteria was to avoid pulling so hard that they created a vacuum that sucked the underlying material in the rock ever tighter on the sword.

The method used to remove the sword was indicative of the type of methods the remover would apply to ruling England. Whoever happened along and was of a personality type that didn't first resort to brute force or violence could have removed the sword and been the true king of England. England being a brutish place at that time, it was just rare to find someone who might rule with wisdom and creativity rather than by brute force alone. (In other words, everyone else in England at that time was simply too stupid to figure out how to remove the sword.)

I don't know anything about Thor Hammer. Is he related to MC Hammer?

Oh I see. It was a mundane (i.e. non-monitored) effect. Like climbing the pole with weights on your arms (in Mulan? or was that Pocahontas?) - turning a liability into an asset.

 

[Ben Niehoff]

He promptly fell into a coma.

Maybe he transferred his consciousness to the hammer, then.

Although I think the real answer was already given. In Norse and Greek mythologies, the gods are not all-powerful, but there are still universal laws that apply to them. So even Odin must call out to the universe, or the world-tree, or something like that to enforce his curse.

 

[FlexGunship]

What we really need is a Hogwarts teacher.

And, hey, was Excalibur really cursed? Or was it just enchanted? Same with Mjolnir. A curse, to me, implies something actively negative.

 

[DaveC426913]

What we really need is a Hogwarts teacher.

Again, magic explains Excalibur, where gods (or demons) operate invisibly as they choose.

Still does not explain Mjollnir.

And, hey, was Excalibur really cursed? Or was it just enchanted? Same with Mjolnir. A curse, to me, implies something actively negative.

Semantics. Curse and enchantment can be subjective. I can simply define a curse as any enchantment that acts as a liability rather than an asset to the user.

 

[DaveC426913]

Maybe he transferred his consciousness to the hammer, then.

Although I think the real answer was already given. In Norse and Greek mythologies, the gods are not all-powerful, but there are still universal laws that apply to them. So even Odin must call out to the universe, or the world-tree, or something like that to enforce his curse.

Yep. This is variation on the 'lesser gods with a Greater Power'. Greater even than the king of the gods of Asgard.

 

[FlexGunship]

Semantics. Curse and enchantment can be subjective. I can simply define a curse as any enchantment that acts as a liability rather than an asset to the user.

Not really, because "enchantment" implies that the object is imbued with intent; that it can take an active part in its own existence.

 

[DaveC426913]

Not really, because "enchantment" implies that the object is imbued with intent; that it can take an active part in its own existence.

So does curse.

But I see your point nonetheless - that the object is the one imbued with the decision-making ability. I suppose Odin imbues it with a tiny piece of his own mind - enough to make the decision about the past deeds of whomever is currently grasping it.

No one needs to be omniscient, no one needs to be observing events unfolding, and above all Odin does not need to invoke a higher power to enact godlike degrees.

All that needs to happen is that, when a potential wielder grabs hold of the object, it reads their minds enough to see their deeds, and from that, judge if the potential wielder is worthy.

I like that. That works.

 

[FlexGunship]

I like that. That works.

With only a moderately complete suspension of disbelief.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

... would be able to strike as firmly as he wanted, whatever his aim, and the hammer would never fail, and if he threw it at something, it would never miss and never fly so far from his hand that it would not find its way back, and when he wanted, it would be so small that it could be carried inside his tunic.

If it can do all that I think it can probably follow orders from Odin too.

 

[DaveC426913]

With only a moderately complete suspension of disbelief.

As long as the things required to be suspended are addresses, then there is no further requirement for suspension.

We grant that there are gods. But even gods have methods they follow.

If it can do all that I think it can probably follow orders from Odin too.

Yes but it's not as simple as that. what if I told you to only open your door to someone worthy. Try as you might you would be incapable of executing that command unless you had the capacity and sensory faculties to judge the worthiness of a complete stranger.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Yes but it's not as simple as that. what if I told you to only open your door to someone worthy. Try as you might you would be incapable of executing that command unless you had the capacity and sensory faculties to judge the worthiness of a complete stranger.

Looking at its alleged powers Mjolnir is apparently sympathetic to its bearer if it can "strike as firmly as he wanted" and "never miss" and "never fly so far from his hand that it would not find its way back". If we further assume that Thor is the only one who could ever be "worthy" of possessing Mjolnir then the task does not stretch very far beyond its existing alleged powers. It must only "know" Thor (which it seems it does) and "know" Odin's will.

 

[Danger]

Am I the only one who realizes that this entire conversation has been based upon the acceptance of something that doesn't exist?

 

[DaveC426913]

Am I the only one who realizes that this entire conversation has been based upon the acceptance of something that doesn't exist?

No you're not.

That is the definition of "suspension of disbelief", without which no movies except documentaries and some dramas could even be made.

 

[Danger]

No you're not.

That is the definition of "suspension of disbelief", without which no movies except documentaries and some dramas could even be made.

I know that you knew, because you set it up. I apologize for prematurely pulling the pin on it, but some of the idiocy was just starting to irk me. That is in no way meant as in insult to the participants. Stats has been one of my best friends on here for quite a while, and Flex has been rapidly earning my respect.
May I compensate you for my indiscretion by buying you a shooter? Perhaps something involving a red substance?
:tongue:

 

[DaveC426913]

I know that you knew, because you set it up. I apologize for prematurely pulling the pin on it, but some of the idiocy was just starting to irk me.

I'm confused. Do you think that any posters are not aware this is a totally "let's grant this fiction for a moment" thread?

But, yes, I'll take that drink.

 

[Danger]

I'll get back to you on that. The Legion is closing down, so I'll be off-line until I get home.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Wait a sec... You mean there's no Mjolnir? :-(

 

[DoggerDan]

Am I the only one who realizes that this entire conversation has been based upon the acceptance of something that doesn't exist?

Not at all. We don't respond to what doesn't exist.

 

[LaurieAG]

It is simple to picture some god devoting a molecule of his will to reach down from heaven and place an invisible finger on the sword, such that it cannot moved by man... Odin declares "Only he who is worthy shall wield Mjölnir!" and embeds the hammer in the ground, where it remains despite the mightiest efforts of humans and fallen gods.

Who enforces it? What higher power does Odin, the King of Gods call upon to grant him his request?

Hi Dave, good topic.

It's interesting that structurally Odin lives in Asgard while his hammer Mjollnir and Excaliber were earthly deposits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mjöllnir

Eitri then puts iron in the forge and tells Brokkr to never stop blowing. Loki comes again and bites Brokkr on the eyelid much harder than before and the blood makes him stop blowing for a short while. When Eitri comes and takes out Mjöllnir, the handle is a bit short (making it one handed).

Heimdall would also blow his horn when Midgard (earth) and Asgard (heaven) were both under attack from the Jotnar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jötunheimr

From Jötunheimr, the giants menace the humans in Midgard and the gods in Asgard. The river Ifing (Old Norse, Ífingr) separates Asgard, the realm of the gods, from Jötunheimr, the land of giants. Gastropnir, home of Menglad, and Þrymheimr, home of Þjazi, were both located in Jötunheimr, which was ruled by King Thrym. Glæsisvellir was a location in Jötunheimr, where lived the giant Gudmund, father of Höfund. Utgard was a stronghold surrounding the land of the giants.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimdall

Heimdallr is the watchman of the gods, and he sits on the edge of heaven to guard the Bifröst bridge from the berg jötnar. Heimdallr requires less sleep than a bird, can see at night just as well as if it were day, and for over a hundred leagues. Heimdallr's hearing is also quite keen; he can hear grass as it grows on the earth, wool as it grows on sheep, and anything louder. Heimdallr possesses a trumpet, Gjallarhorn, that, when blown, can be heard in all worlds, and "the head is referred to has Heimdall's sword".

Smelting iron ores for superior weapons was very difficult but there were easier ways to get the metal other than smelting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age

Thus it is not surprising that humans only mastered the technology of smelted iron after several millennia of bronze metallurgy.

It was thought that the lack of archaeological evidence of iron production made it seem unlikely that iron production was begun earlier elsewhere, and the Iron Age was seen as a case of simple diffusion of a new and superior technology from an invention point in Near East to other regions. It is known in the present age that meteoric iron, or iron-nickel alloy, was used by various ancient peoples thousands of years before the Iron Age. Such iron, being in its native metallic state, required no smelting of ores.

This source of metallic iron would have been the main source of superior weaponry in the west up to the introduction of blast furnaces in the high middle ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace

Superior weapons are probably cursed because they can kill people more easily than inferior weapons.

 

[FlexGunship]

[...]and Flex has been rapidly earning my respect. [...]

(Source: http://127.0.0.1/2011/04/funny-celebrity-pictures-roll/ )