Possibility of a Conscious Universe: Proving Life and Awareness

In summary, the conversation discusses the idea of whether the universe is conscious and alive. The definition of life and consciousness is debated, with some arguing that it only applies to living organisms. However, others believe that even elementary particles possess consciousness and that the universe as a whole is conscious. Ultimately, the concept of synergy is brought up, highlighting the unique properties that arise when multiple things come together. The term "Quantum Decoherence" is mentioned as a way to understand the universe's tendency towards coherence and organization.
  • #36


Originally posted by MajinVegeta
To answer such questions, you must first find what the definition of life is. What makes something alive. It is unidefined...personally, I think the universe is alive since it does have chemical reactions.

But fire is a chemical reaction, and it isn't alive.
 
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  • #37
Mentat...

Or maybe it IS.
 
  • #38


Originally posted by Mentat
But fire is a chemical reaction, and it isn't alive.
And yet it seems to be giving off "the essence" of something. Even if derived from an "inanimate form."
 
  • #39
Originally posted by M. Gaspar
What might a grub "know"? What might a proton "know"? What might we "know"? What might "God" "know"? What might the Universe "know".

Perhaps, that it is what it is. I DON'T "know". I speculate.
But we all know that grubs turn into butterflies, and that in fact there is an afterlife, at least for grubs anyway.
 
  • #40
IACCHUS

When big stars "die"...isn't it odd that their "corpse" has a powerful, attractive force that STILL effects its neighborhood, if not the Universe?
 
  • #41
Originally posted by M. Gaspar
When big stars "die"...isn't it odd that their "corpse" has a powerful, attractive force that STILL effects its neighborhood, if not the Universe?
Oh, do you mean like Elvis? Or perhaps Lenin? And oh yeah, "Jesus Christ Superstar!" Hey, if I didn't know your cosmological bent (not that I'm really up on cosmology), I would say you're talking about people here. And yet that's not the way I took it. Even so there's something peculiar about it either way now isn't there?

I take it you're referring to things like red giants, white dwarfs, black holes, etc., Right? While I guess you would be talking about their "gravity fields."
 
  • #42
Yes...

I'm talking about their gavitational fields...an odd "echo" for something considered "dead".

May I not speak figuratively in a PHYSICS Forum?

More later...gotta get some GRUB (before it turns into a butterfly and I have to chase it around the room to eat it).
 
  • #43
Originally posted by Iacchus32
But we all know that grubs turn into butterflies, and that in fact there is an afterlife, at least for grubs anyway.

How is this proof of any afterlife? No offense, but were you serious here?
 
  • #44
Originally posted by Mentat
How is this proof of any afterlife? No offense, but were you serious here?

I think he was serious bout that, an afterlife for grubs.
And we can be serious of afterlifes for embryoos, babies, and infants too!
 
  • #45
Originally posted by heusdens
I think he was serious bout that, an afterlife for grubs.
And we can be serious of afterlifes for embryoos, babies, and infants too!

Look at the word "afterlife", and tell me you don't see a compound word. It is obviously composed of the words, "after" and "life". Unless the grub dies, before becoming a butterfly (which it doesn't), the butterfly is not an afterlife of the grub.
 
  • #46
Originally posted by Mentat
Look at the word "afterlife", and tell me you don't see a compound word. It is obviously composed of the words, "after" and "life". Unless the grub dies, before becoming a butterfly (which it doesn't), the butterfly is not an afterlife of the grub.
Use your imagination!

And yet there will come a time in the life of the grub when an amazing transformation takes place, and through this one silken thread (wisdom) he spins his little cocoon and prepares for a very long deep sleep (death). And yet he finally awakens, only to discover that he's a new creature, and that indeed, there is an afterlife! Well at least for grubs anyway.

Isn't it a marvel that a grub can do this? Whose to say it isn't any different for human beings? Mother Nature has many mysteries to teach us which, after all, is what gave rise to science isn't it?
 
  • #47
And who's to say, Iacchus...

...that it's not the same for the UNIVERSE...a series of INFINITE INCARNATIONS from "Big Bang" to "Big Crunch" to next "Big Bang". [?] [?] [?] [?] [?]
 
  • #48
Isn't it a marvel that a grub can do this? Whose to say it isn't any different for human beings?
Yes it is indeed a marvel. Unfortunately the cocoons which people do their transformations in are often spun from yarn and used to lace the inside pine boxes.
 
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  • #49
Originally posted by M. Gaspar
...that it's not the same for the UNIVERSE...a series of INFINITE INCARNATIONS from "Big Bang" to "Big Crunch" to next "Big Bang". [?] [?] [?] [?] [?]
I'm afraid the only real reference point I have is myself (consciously). And besides not being up on comsmology, I'm not really sure I can speak about the Universe as whole. Although I do believe it's conscious, because consciousness emanates from God (i.e., the one being the cause and the other being the effect).
 
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  • #50
Originally posted by BoulderHead
Yes it is indeed a marvel. Unfortunately the cocoons which people do their transformations in are often spun from yarn and used to lace the inside pine boxes.
Yes, but where does this complex energy pattern (or field) which is so attached to our body, what we would call "our essence" (or soul), go when we die? Even something as inanimate as a piece of (dead) wood has to burn before it gives off its essence. But with something which is alive, like us, we expire just like that. Does our consciousness just evaporate into thin air? Of course you could cremate the "dead corpse" any time afterwards, but that would be comparable to burning a piece of dead wood? I mean what gives?

Besides, where do we go when we dream?
 
  • #51
...Does our consciousness just evaporate into thin air?
It might simply fade away after a few moments.
...I mean what gives?
I'd like to simply say that I'm Dying to find out.:smile:
 
  • #52
Originally posted by Iacchus32
Originally posted by M. Gaspar
...that it's not the same for the UNIVERSE...a series of INFINITE INCARNATIONS from "Big Bang" to "Big Crunch" to next "Big Bang". [?] [?] [?] [?] [?]
I'm afraid the only real reference point I have is myself (consciously). And besides not being up on comsmology, I'm not really sure I can speak about the Universe as whole. Although I do believe it's conscious, because consciousness emanates from God (i.e., the one being the cause and the other being the effect).
And what criteria are you using? Are saying the "Big Bang" has occurred more than once? And what do you mean by "Big Crunch?" Or, are these just reverberations of the "original event?" Whereas I'm afraid if the Universe is going to collapse, and blast apart all over again, it won't be happening anytime soon, and I won't be here to witness it.

Of course I do believe the Universe is constantly tearing itself to pieces and constantly re-assimilating itself due to "the clash" between Good and Evil. Which is why we all experience "pleasure and pain."
 
  • #53
Originally posted by Iacchus32
Use your imagination!

And yet there will come a time in the life of the grub when an amazing transformation takes place, and through this one silken thread (wisdom) he spins his little cocoon and prepares for a very long deep sleep (death). And yet he finally awakens, only to discover that he's a new creature, and that indeed, there is an afterlife! Well at least for grubs anyway.

Isn't it a marvel that a grub can do this? Whose to say it isn't any different for human beings? Mother Nature has many mysteries to teach us which, after all, is what gave rise to science isn't it?

The actual grub is not dead, when it is in it's cocoon.

The symbolic grub can do whatever you want it to, provided you add some meaning to it, after having given the illustration.
 
  • #54
Yes, Iacchus..

I'm saying the Universe is an Entity that has INFINITE INCARNATIONS...from "Big Bang" through EXPANSION through CONTRACTION to "Big Crunch" then another "Big Bang", etc


Or, let me put it another way...


[?] [?] [?] [?] ...if you get my drift.
 
  • #55


Originally posted by M. Gaspar
I'm saying the Universe is an Entity that has INFINITE INCARNATIONS...from "Big Bang" through EXPANSION through CONTRACTION to "Big Crunch" then another "Big Bang", etc


Or, let me put it another way...


[?] [?] [?] [?] ...if you get my drift.
Oh, do you mean the rhythm of the Universe? As in frequency? I understand its number is "432" ...

Of course I have my own ideas about the Big Bang theory, but that would imply God had a mistress, and that the Universe was conceived in "the moment."
 
  • #56
good grub

Mentat's point suggest to me the grub just stayed alive not zooming to afterlife although the question still lives. It is like Plato's allegory of livin in a cave one's whole life, the sounds outside may seem like God's and the outside does exist even if the ones inside the cave don't realize it.
By the way, for the sake of humor, my sister used to be a butterfly, but now she is a grub.
Sad but true, www.surrealcity.com and well a teacher once said about the afterlife, He will wait until he dies to find out. And we deserve a definitive answer, don't we? Geez, maybe I don't. Bye for now, Gilnv.
 
  • #57
Originally posted by Mentat
The actual grub is not dead, when it is in it's cocoon.
But that's the whole point, if there is an afterlife for us humans, then technically we're not dead either when we rise out of our dead corpses, or coffins, or cocoons or whatever. All of which is reflected in the following:

"But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine." (Matthew 22:31-33)

Originally posted by Mentat
The symbolic grub can do whatever you want it to, provided you add some meaning to it, after having given the illustration.
Did you read the piece https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=830&perpage=15&pagenumber=3" above? I think the illustration and the meaning suites the symbolism just fine. Although I think you're suggesting I just come right out and say, Hey everybody, there's an afterlife! Now how far do you think that would go? At least this way I probably got you to think about it ...
 
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  • #58


Originally posted by nevagil
Mentat's point suggest to me the grub just stayed alive not zooming to afterlife although the question still lives. It is like Plato's allegory of livin in a cave one's whole life, the sounds outside may seem like God's and the outside does exist even if the ones inside the cave don't realize it.
Am not sure what you're saying? Are you saying Mentat is not acknowledging that the grub undergoes a "transformation" into an entirely different state? And that it "truly transcends" (meaning, to rise above) its previous state? If so, then I agree, otherwise you'll have to make yourself more clear.
 
  • #59
maybe grubs &

I thought Mentat meant the grub doesn't go to afterlife because it doesn't die, just transforms. I think Iacchus32 considers the transformation an afterlife or at least a good symbolic example of an afterlife. So it has me thinking that I've hoped that if there is an afterlife that we would be keeping our same consciousness, and not do such a transformation that I don't recall being human. I guess I'm questioning the definition of afterlife. Emotionally I wanta keep my consciousness. Many things like the universe don't seem conscious with choice or emotion. The universe seems like a hybred fruit tree that is living, reacting and could be split into two living parts or have half of it mixed with another universe for a hybred but it doesn't seem conscious or capable of reproduction. Although maybe us humans are the conscious part of it, like maybe we are its brain. Maybe humans someday will control the universe enough so that it can reproduce with our help.Then in that line of thinking maybe the universe is conscious a little. Maybe that's what that term collective consciousness or universe meant, I just glanced over that area.
Enjoy the spring, bye for now.
 
  • #60
Originally posted by Iacchus32
But that's the whole point, if there is an afterlife for us humans, then technically we're not dead either when we rise out of our dead corpses, or coffins, or cocoons or whatever. All of which is reflected in the following:

"But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine." (Matthew 22:31-33)

Exactly, and if one doesn't die, then there can be no period that is "after life". There may be a resurrection (my opinion on that is irrelevant, and that is a Religious issue anyway), but that doesn't mean that the grub needs to be "resurrected" from it's transforming state (within the cocoon). It doesn't need to be resurrected because it's not dead.

Did you read the piece https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=830&perpage=15&pagenumber=3" above? I think the illustration and the meaning suites the symbolism just fine. Although I think you're suggesting I just come right out and say, Hey everybody, there's an afterlife! Now how far do you think that would go? At least this way I probably got you to think about it ...

This issue is entirely religious, and has no place in the Philosophy Forum. I mean no offense to you at all. It's just that the reason I don't post in the Religion Forum is that I made an agreement with someone that I wouldn't discuss Religious isssues, on the PFs. The person I made the agreement with doesn't mind that sometimes the topics get religious, and I keep resonding, so long as the mentors move it quickly, and I don't respond to it, once it's in the Religion Forum.
 
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  • #61
Mentat...

Is it a philosophical, religious, spiritual or cosmological discussion that asks whether the Universe is conscious?

We know that there is consciousness "in" the Universe...so I think of it as cosmological.

Unfortunately, when one starts to talk about the Universe, people seem to want to talk about It's "creator"...which doesn't include me because I speculate that the Universe is an Entity ITSELF...not created by a Great Outsider.

If the Universe were conscious AND responsive to all of its parts, would it be a philosophical discussion to ask how that might be "useful"?

And, if there were COHESIVE CHUNKS OF CONSCIOUSNESS that reincarnate as a function of evolution, could be not call it a "spirit" -- for want of a better name. This would make the discussion about the "afterlife of the grub" a SPIRITUAL one...not a "religious" one, which is something else, I think.
 
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  • #62
Originally posted by Mentat
Exactly, and if one doesn't die, then there can be no period that is "after life". There may be a resurrection (my opinion on that is irrelevant, and that is a Religious issue anyway), but that doesn't mean that the grub needs to be "resurrected" from it's transforming state (within the cocoon). It doesn't need to be resurrected because it's not dead.
Then what do you call the "dead corpse" you leave behind? Like I said, there is an "afterlife" for grubs, and they too leave behind an "empty shell" or husk.

Originally posted by Mentat
This issue is entirely religious, and has no place in the Philosophy Forum. I mean no offense to you at all. It's just that the reason I don't post in the Religion Forum is that I made an agreement with someone that I wouldn't discuss Religious isssues, on the PFs. The person I made the agreement with doesn't mind that sometimes the topics get religious, and I keep resonding, so long as the mentors move it quickly, and I don't respond to it, once it's in the Religion Forum.
If I didn't mention God would it make a difference? Besides, what's the difference between that and what saying I'm below?

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Yes, but where does this complex energy pattern (or field) which is so attached to our body, what we would call "our essence" (or soul), go when we die? Even something as inanimate as a piece of (dead) wood has to burn before it gives off its essence. But with something which is alive, like us, we expire just like that. Does our consciousness just evaporate into thin air? Of course you could cremate the "dead corpse" any time afterwards, but that would be comparable to burning a piece of dead wood? I mean what gives?

Besides, where do we go when we dream?
I'm saying the same thing here! Ooops, I did mention "soul" now didn't I? Better replace that with "psyche" ... Hmm... if you don't wish for me to say things like "God," then don't evoke me until you finally get me to do so (which, it seems you were trying to do).
 
  • #63
"Soul" is not a four-letter word!

Where does "our essence" go?

Well, if our essense/spirit/soul/whatever were a COHESIVE CHUNCH OF CONSCIOUSNESS, might it not STAY cohesive when the body falls apart?

Meanwhile, can we recognize a distinction between "religion" and "spirituality"?

And are these "off topic" when discussing whether the Universe is conscious?
 
  • #64
Originally posted by M. Gaspar
If the Universe were conscious AND responsive to all of its parts, would it be a philosophical discussion to ask how that might be "useful"?
But what does conciousness imply? Does it imply "a will," such as with us humans? If so, then wouldn't it also imply the need for a greater consciousness and a greater will, in order to rule over ours? Or else we would be ruled over by that which is beneath us, in which case I don't think consciousness is possible, do you?

Doesn't consciousness imply a hierchy or arrangement of things, by which everything is ruled from the highest sense to the lowest sense? If not, then guess what, we're no better than grubs, the lowliest creatures on earth!

In which case I should ask again, What do grubs know?
 
  • #65


Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Where does "our essence" go?

Well, if our essense/spirit/soul/whatever were a COHESIVE CHUNCH OF CONSCIOUSNESS, might it not STAY cohesive when the body falls apart?
It gives us a reason to wonder now doesn't it?
 
  • #66
Iacchus...

What's with your need to be "ruled"?

Yes, I believe there is the "Primary Will" of the Universe, which is "simply" to have an Experience. Of course, the Experience is rather complex, consisting of the experience of Everything That Is.

As to consciousness, I believe that "collective thought" comprises the "network" through which the Universe perceives, interprets, learns and responds (among other things)...and this could be said to be the Mind of the Universe.
 
  • #67


Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Is it a philosophical, religious, spiritual or cosmological discussion that asks whether the Universe is conscious?

We know that there is consciousness "in" the Universe...so I think of it as cosmological.

Unfortunately, when one starts to talk about the Universe, people seem to want to talk about It's "creator"...which doesn't include me because I speculate that the Universe is an Entity ITSELF...not created by a Great Outsider.

If the Universe were conscious AND responsive to all of its parts, would it be a philosophical discussion to ask how that might be "useful"?

And, if there were COHESIVE CHUNKS OF CONSCIOUSNESS that reincarnate as a function of evolution, could be not call it a "spirit" -- for want of a better name. This would make the discussion about the "afterlife of the grub" a SPIRITUAL one...not a "religious" one, which is something else, I think.

I didn't say that the discussion of a conscious universe was religious. If I thought so, I wouldn't be participating. It was Iacchus' posts that were religiously inclined (I find it hard to believe, if you say you hadn't noticed).
 
  • #68
Originally posted by Iacchus32
Then what do you call the "dead corpse" you leave behind? Like I said, there is an "afterlife" for grubs, and they too leave behind an "empty shell" or husk.

I don't leave anything behind. I cease existing at death. Ecclesiastes 9:5 (since you seem to be fond of scripture) - "The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all". I'm not leaving my carcass behind, I (my conscious self) cease existing, the carcass will eventually also cease existing.

If I didn't mention God would it make a difference? Besides, what's the difference between that and what saying I'm below?

Yes it does make a difference that you mention God. Discussions about gods, Gods, souls, etc belong in the Religion Forum. Lifegazer sneaks by, by making his "God" a non-entity - and using only rationalization (as he sees it) to prove the existence of this being. Aside from that, the Mentors have made it clear that all discussions about God, or Religion belong in the Religion Forum.

I'm saying the same thing here! Ooops, I did mention "soul" now didn't I? Better replace that with "psyche" ... Hmm... if you don't wish for me to say things like "God," then don't evoke me until you finally get me to do so (which, it seems you were trying to do).

I'm not trying to get you to mention God. In fact, I am trying to stop you from doing so. Your philosophy is so based on the existence of a god, that - in getting any deeper into your reasoning - you will inevitably mention god.
 
  • #69
Originally posted by M. Gaspar
What's with your need to be "ruled"?
Just as "my consciousness" rules over my environment (either it does it or doesn't), then to the degree that you speak of a greater consciousness (I'm suggesting consciousness "presides" over everything), by which mine is only a "tiny sliver," then it too must be endowed, at the very least, with the same capacity of thought I have (if not way beyond). Consider the slice of bread taken from the overall loaf. Don't the slice and the loaf have the same overall properties? Therefore, it only makes sense that there be a higher consciousness, "or entity," that rules above mine.


Mentat: This is an entirely rational statement. It's still within context of the original thread. I don't see how you (or anyone else) can take offense to it?

Now if I were to blatantly mention God throughout my posts, which I don't, then you might have reason to take issue with me.
 
  • #70
Consider the slice of bread taken from the overall loaf. Don't the slice and the loaf have the same overall properties? Therefore, it only makes sense that there be a higher consciousness, "or entity," that rules above mine.
No, for what you are doing is instead saying that the loaf of bread itself is a manifestation of a still larger chunk of breadiness. The fact that such a relationship exists once is no implication there must be an infinite chain of them...
 
<h2>1. What is the concept of a conscious universe?</h2><p>The concept of a conscious universe suggests that the universe itself is conscious and aware, rather than just being a collection of unconscious matter. This idea proposes that the universe has a purpose and that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of it.</p><h2>2. How is the possibility of a conscious universe being studied?</h2><p>The study of a conscious universe is a complex and ongoing process. Scientists are exploring various theories and conducting experiments to understand the nature and potential of consciousness in the universe. Some approaches include studying the brain, quantum mechanics, and the concept of panpsychism.</p><h2>3. What evidence supports the idea of a conscious universe?</h2><p>While there is no definitive evidence yet, some scientists argue that certain phenomena, such as the observer effect in quantum mechanics, suggest the presence of consciousness in the universe. Additionally, the complexity and order of the universe may also be seen as evidence of a conscious design.</p><h2>4. What are the potential implications of a conscious universe?</h2><p>If proven, the concept of a conscious universe could have significant implications for our understanding of the universe and our place in it. It could also impact our understanding of consciousness and its role in the universe, potentially leading to new scientific and philosophical discoveries.</p><h2>5. Is there a consensus among scientists about the possibility of a conscious universe?</h2><p>There is currently no consensus among scientists about the concept of a conscious universe. Some argue that it is a valid and promising theory, while others remain skeptical and believe that more evidence is needed to support it. As research and understanding continue to evolve, we may gain a better understanding of the possibility of a conscious universe.</p>

1. What is the concept of a conscious universe?

The concept of a conscious universe suggests that the universe itself is conscious and aware, rather than just being a collection of unconscious matter. This idea proposes that the universe has a purpose and that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of it.

2. How is the possibility of a conscious universe being studied?

The study of a conscious universe is a complex and ongoing process. Scientists are exploring various theories and conducting experiments to understand the nature and potential of consciousness in the universe. Some approaches include studying the brain, quantum mechanics, and the concept of panpsychism.

3. What evidence supports the idea of a conscious universe?

While there is no definitive evidence yet, some scientists argue that certain phenomena, such as the observer effect in quantum mechanics, suggest the presence of consciousness in the universe. Additionally, the complexity and order of the universe may also be seen as evidence of a conscious design.

4. What are the potential implications of a conscious universe?

If proven, the concept of a conscious universe could have significant implications for our understanding of the universe and our place in it. It could also impact our understanding of consciousness and its role in the universe, potentially leading to new scientific and philosophical discoveries.

5. Is there a consensus among scientists about the possibility of a conscious universe?

There is currently no consensus among scientists about the concept of a conscious universe. Some argue that it is a valid and promising theory, while others remain skeptical and believe that more evidence is needed to support it. As research and understanding continue to evolve, we may gain a better understanding of the possibility of a conscious universe.

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