Should I put off my studies until the child-raising years are over?

[sari]

Hello,

I would appreciate advice, preferably from people with families.

I am currently plodding through a degree in physics\math at a snail's pace, due to working part-time at unconventional hours (in informal education) and raising a 1.5 year old. I also observe the Jewish sabbath, so between cooking\cleaning on Fridays and not working on Saturdays, I don't really have weekends to work on my courses. I am also due to give birth to our second (and probably last) child in September. My husband is very supportive, but currently he is in grad school (in philosophy) and the only income he brings in is a stipend from the program he's studying in.

I feel I have a natural talent for the sciences, although, due my life's current circumstances, that potential is not reflecting itself in my grades. I have a mild interest in continuing to higher degrees in the future, but I really can't see myself working in scientific academic research for a living (Because of the long hours and pressure to constantly publish, not to mention the huge competition.) I do not have any other degrees or any work experience in the industry, except for brief experience as an electro-optics technician (which I did not enjoy at all). In general, I would want to find a job involving science, which would allow me to solve problems and use my brain, and hopefully do something positive in the world. I am interested in environmental physics, atmospheric sciences, alternative energy, material engineering, modelling and developing algorithms and lots of other things. I think I would rather spend more time in front of a computer than in a lab, but I don't have that much lab experience, sO I don't really know.

So I'm wondering whether I should take a break from my studies until my children are older (and childcare gets cheaper, and my husband finds a job, and my brain isn't addled from sleep deprivation) and continue my degree later on.

The things I'm worried about are:

1) Finding a good job without a degree.
2) Resuming studies after a few years only to find that I've forgotten everything I learned at the beginning of my degree.

On the other hand, I don't want to pay a lot of money for courses if I won't be able to get sufficient grades in them.

The possibilities I've thought of for the next few years are:

1. Just teach myself the things I'm interested in for the fun of it, without the pressure of deadlines.

I am naturally a curious person with strong autodidactic tendencies. I tend to work slowly but thoroughly, and make sure I understand the basic concepts before I move on. It is easier for me to learn from books than from lectures (I am currently studying all my courses from home from textbooks). I could see myself reading textbooks on quantum mechanics and optics just for the fun of it. I also tend to focus better when I learn at my own pace and am not under a lot of pressure, though I think I would probably not find lots of time to actually sit down and work through exercises. And if left to my own devices, I could find myself gravitating more towards reading on things like the humanities, which also interest me, but I can't really see myself working in that area.

2. Take "lighter" courses in subjects that also interest me, like chemistry or computers (I'm interested mostly in the theoretical aspects of computing, but I guess I could also enjoy the technical stuff). I've taken a general chemistry course (based on Atkin's "principles of Chemical Science") and an introduction to CS course, and I have found them to be much easier than physics and math courses. I don't really want a complete degree in those subjects - just specific courses that interest me.

3. Get good at programming and other computer skills by teaching myself, so that I can hopefully get a job that better matches my skills and can provide a steady income while I slowly amass university courses.

4. Continue struggling through the degree I started with, taking maybe 1 or 2 courses per semester, while trying to balance studies, work and family.

5. Not work, study full-time, hope we can cover rent, childcare and other expenses on one income, finish my degree in a normal period of time with mediocre grades, rather than dragging it out for what seems like forever.

In any case, I'm not worried about my brain stagnating if I take a hiatus - mainly worried about prospects of career advancement.

The courses I have completed so far (over 3 years) are:

Mechanics
Electricity and Magnetism
Calculus 1+2+3
Linear Algebra
Differential Equations
Intro to CS using Java
Analysis
Complex analysis
Linear programming
General chemistry
Discrete mathematics
Introduction to biology

plus a smattering of Matlab and C++.

THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME TO READ THIS!
Any advice would be most appreciated!

 

[lisab]

Whew, sari! You have a heavy load! I sympathize, you must be completely exhausted.

So your baby comes in September (congrats, btw ), do you plan to take that term off? Having a toddler and a newborn is going to be tough for a while!

I offer the 'big picture' view: you have more time than maybe you realize. For example, my child-rearing days are over, my daughter is now away at college. Yet I have probably 20 more years of career ahead of me! That's enough time for me to start a whole new career, if I choose!

You probably realize the early years are completely exhausting, demanding, and wearing...and *so* important! Keep in mind they're only in their early years for a short time, and you will have a lot of time to fill after they've flown the nest.

My $0.02.

 

[PhysDrew]

Hi Sari!
Well I kind of was in the same position (but not really..)
Anyway I was originally at uni a long time ago, then a bundle of joy decided to bless me with their presence. My partner was out of work, and I was at uni, so I decided to leave and join the army to provide for my new family. I was in for 6 years, and have just got out to start my uni again. I found that most things I didn't forget, but I did have to practice them again (I'm doing a double in Physics and Maths as well). I tried to go over my notes whilst I was in the army as much as I could, whilst reading some of the topics to come. I also only did one or two subjects when I went back to uni (as I've recently been blessed with twins as well!) So I'm back at uni with 3 kids, my wife who works full time (she's gone from around 6 in the morning till 8 at night) so I know how hard it will be. But if you do decide to take a break, my experience is that it's not all that bad, and as lisab said, you have plenty of time left. Hope this helps.
Congratulations on your new baby!

 

[mathwonk]

my wife and i had our first child when she was 21 and i was 30. i then entered grad school, with my wife taking care of the child. She wanted a second child but i was afraid to add to our duties before graduating. in another couple of years, when our youngest was 3, we had a second. It was hard for me since i was not yet finished, but one night while rocking the baby i determined to finish and the next day made a significant step that led to that conclusion. 7 years later, my wife went back to school while i tried to maintain the home life and my research. my research slackened but ultimately we both achieved careers we enjoyed. The younger child was somewhat unhappy to come home from school at age 7 or 9 with neither of us home, but i think this was not a frequent occurrence. but you must ask him. you do the best you can. good luck. today we are rather happy and i think our kids are too.

 

[Angry Citizen]

Well, for starters, let me say that I'm an atheist, so I tend not to have the respect for religious traditions that most people do. However, I'll do my best not to be a royal prick here.

If wikipedia is any authority, the following are prohibited activities on the Jewish Sabbath:

"[...] ploughing earth, sowing, reaping, binding sheaves, threshing, winnowing, selecting, grinding, sifting, kneading, baking, shearing wool, washing wool, beating wool, dyeing wool, spinning, weaving, making two loops, weaving two threads, separating two threads, tying, untying, sewing stitches, tearing, trapping, slaughtering, flaying, tanning, scraping hide, marking hides, cutting hide to shape, writing two or more letters, erasing two or more letters, building, demolishing, extinguishing a fire, kindling a fire, putting the finishing touch on an object and transporting an object between the private domain and the public domain, or for a distance of 4 cubits within the public domain."

None of this seems to include education. And if for some reason you do think it's included, I think you need to weigh your priorities. Childrearing does not get easier as they get older. If you choose to give up because they're in diapers, then you'll keep finding excuses not to continue your studies when they start school, when they start shaving, etc. and before you know it, they're off to college and you're making a post on PhysicsForums asking whether it's too late for you to live your dream. I'm sorry to say, but losing an entire weekend day would be crippling to you. You need to find some way to rationalize at least studying on Saturday, or I fear you're in for a world of hurt whether you continue your education now or set it aside for a few years. You need to decide whether strict observance (assuming there's anything to observe, considering the list I mentioned above) is more important than your life's work.

Another thing is that your financial situation is not going to get easier. On the contrary -- philosophy majors are about as employable as a spork. The stipend your husband receives now is likely going to be the most he'll ever see from his philosophy degree. It would be better for you to continue your education now while you still have that money.

One thing I can recommend is switching to engineering. You don't seem interested in the life of a traditional physicist, and frankly, academia is where it's at for most physics work. On the contrary, there's no pressure to publish in a typical engineering job. It's highly marketable and pays extremely well. Engineering would definitely stimulate your brain and allow you to find an extremely comfortable job in just about any field you could possibly want. It also seems to be a better fit for you. Since you're not interested in academia, then how about physics in the applied sense, used in industry? That's all engineering is: applying physics/math to find the solution to challenging design, implementation, and simulation problems.

With the courses you've taken now, you could expect to finish an engineering degree in about two to two and a half years, maybe three, if you do it full time. Now, I don't think you can reasonably do seventeen credits in a semester (as an example) -- not with a child. I figure you can reasonably handle twelve credits or so per semester, which is technically full time, but is not considered full time by engineering standards. That puts your graduation in four years maximum.

Consider also that you'll likely have paid summer internships at various local companies, which will bring in income (engineers are in high demand -- companies like to attract engineers before they graduate in the hopes they'll gravitate to the company). Don't be afraid to take out loans if you're seriously pursuing an engineering degree. I am not exaggerating when I say it's marketable. My aerospace degree, on average, is worth 60k (USD) per year at an entry level position. Ten years later, it's worth double that. Most student loans don't require repayment until six months after graduation -- long enough to find a job with an engineering degree.

I'll say this. If you're genuinely interested in the sciences, then self-study will never, ever replace the real thing. I think you need to find some way to make it work. I know in my own case that it's 'engineering or bust'. I wouldn't be happy with anything else.

About the mediocre grades: What do they call a man who graduated medical school at the bottom of his class? Doctor. A Bachelors is an acceptable terminal degree in engineering. If you can get through the classes, you can find a job.

I hope things work out for you, and I hope I didn't offend you by suggesting that you bend your religious obligations.

 

[Simfish]

Anyways, you actually don't have to put as much effort in raising children as many people think they need. https://www.amazon.com/dp/046501867X/?tag=pfamazon01-20 cites plenty of research showing that parental influence (especially the amount of time parents spend with their children) usually does not have a significant impact on a child's predispositions and outcome.

 

[Latecomer]

The important thing is to appreciate the time you have with your children while they're young. Since this is your second, you know how fast they grow up... Industry/school isn't going anywhere.
I'm in a similar situation and I've taken the part-time classes route. I go to class at nights when my wife gets home from school. I don't have the time, nor can I afford the childcare, to take a full course load at the moment. However, during nap-times and at night I have the free time to sit down and do homework/study.
Are you able to take any online courses? I assume you still have some gen ed coursework to complete, and many of those courses are easily completed online if your school offers them.
An online class or two, along with a traditional science or math class should be manageable. You'll still be working towards your degree, and you also might be able to spend more time really learning and understanding the material in whatever class you take.

 

[eliya]

Angry Citizen, observant jews can't write on the sabbath, or use a computer. Therefore, it's impossible to do homework on the sabbath.
However, they can read on the sabbath, and that is my advice to you sari. Try to read your textbooks during the sabbath. I know it's not the same when you can just read the textbook and not work out some of the examples and derivations with pen and paper, but it's something.
Also, if you live in the states/UK/etc. then neither you or your husband have any classes and perhaps you can use that as a day where you can work on school stuff. I know it's not enough if you have a full course load, but it's something. If you live in Israel then this is not possible.
FWIW, my brother and his wife both just graduated from Med School. They were full time students and had their first baby halfway through it. I don't know how they did it, but it can be done.

 

[sari]

Thanks for all the advice. It's encouraging to hear that you can get back into studies despite the material not being fresh in your mind.

I'm not offended by the suggestion to change my religious beliefs.

The thing is, what kind of job could I work until I completed my degree? (If I should work at all - we could scrimp and try to get by on my husband's salary, but we did that for a while and it was not easy. He has a degree in education, so he'll probably start working as a teacher in a year or two. It's not great, but it's better than what he gets now.) I was thinking that programming could work, but it's hard to find part-time programming jobs and I would need to take the time to bring my programming skills up to par anyways. I can't really think of any full-time job that doesn't require a degree that I would really enjoy doing enough to not feel guilty about leaving my kids all day, and if I delayed my studies while doing all sorts of odd jobs here and there for many years, I would feel pretty frustrated. In Israel, where I live, there aren't that many summer internship opportunities, so I wouldn't count on that.

Thanks for all your input!

 

[Angry Citizen]

The thing is, what kind of job could I work until I completed my degree?

You might see if you can find a job on-campus. They typically pay pretty well compared to off-campus jobs.

 

[eliya]

Hey Sari, how about tutoring Math to children?
Growing up in Israel, almost everyone I knew had to take math private lessons to get through high school. Maybe you can find a few students? I know it's not much, but it's something. I think that there are all kinds of jobs like that that fit students. My brother was teaching kids in elementary school a few hours a week while he was in school (he lives in Be'er Sheva).

 

[Geezer]

Hello,

I would appreciate advice, preferably from people with families.

I am currently plodding through a degree in physics\math at a snail's pace, due to working part-time at unconventional hours (in informal education) and raising a 1.5 year old. I also observe the Jewish sabbath, so between cooking\cleaning on Fridays and not working on Saturdays, I don't really have weekends to work on my courses. I am also due to give birth to our second (and probably last) child in September. My husband is very supportive, but currently he is in grad school (in philosophy) and the only income he brings in is a stipend from the program he's studying in.

Shalom, Sari.

I'm Jewish, too (though not super observant), I'm female, and I have a daughter (3.5 years old now), so I understand where you're coming from.

I'm returning to school this fall (September 2011) after having taken off the past 5 years to have our kid and follow my husband around from post doc to post doc. For me, the drive to get my Physics PhD is such that I'm willing to keep working at it, even if it means being a "non-traditional" student who's had to take many breaks that traditional students don't take.

The only thing I can say is this: If it's really what you want, then keep at it, even if at a snail's pace. You'll be rewarded for your effort.

 

[Geezer]

Thanks for all the advice. It's encouraging to hear that you can get back into studies despite the material not being fresh in your mind.

I'm not offended by the suggestion to change my religious beliefs.

The thing is, what kind of job could I work until I completed my degree?

I agree with the post above that recommended switching to engineering. It could be a good fit for you.

Also, once you have your bachelor's degree, you can pursue a master's in engineering online, which can be easier for you if you're the primary caregiver to your children and if you're naturally autodidactic. There are some very good and reputable engineering programs online; you shouldn't have any trouble separating the worthwhile ones from the not-so-good ones.

As far as childcare goes, your shul or temple might have a daycare or preschool program that provides scholarships to lower-income families and/or offers tuition on a sliding scale. You should look into it.

 

[sari]

Wow, thanks for all the advice. I guess engineering really is a better fit. I'm thinking that next year I should probably sign up for about 2 easier courses per semester that aren't proof-heavy (like something in computers), which would still give me credits and which my brain could still deal with at the wee hours of the night.

From my experience, tutoring helps bring in a little extra here and there but it's not something you can count on for fixed monthly income. Usually students just want to cram in private lessons a month or two before the exams, and there isn't much of a demand the rest of the year.

I was looking into teaching through schools - though nobody in their right mind would hire me, with a baby due in September. It may be an option in another year.

Thanks for the ideas, though.