Understand Doppler Effect: Hubble & Stars Moving Away

In summary: Drag, were trying to say?In summary, the doppler effect is used to determine the velocity of stars by examining their spectral lines. The shift in frequency indicates the object's radial velocity. The approximation is accurate as long as v/c is small. For stars in the same locale, the doppler effect is used and the square root of the doppler shift equation is used to determine the sideways component of velocity. The sideways component has to be determined differently for stars in different locales.
  • #1
jakrabb
10
0
I am trying to understand how the doppler effect was used when determining that the other stars were moving away from us. I get that the spectral lines observed are shifted and by examining that data we can calculate how fast its moving and if it is towards or away from us. could anyone elaborate on this? can we actually tell a direction; is the margin of error large or small? ... i guess i just need more info to comprehend it all..
 
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  • #2
Greetings !

Welcome to PF jakrabb ! :smile:

If the object moves away the frequency of the emmited
electromagnetic waves (light) will decrease (Doppler Effect),
if it moves towards us the frequency will increase.
The whole EM frequency range is called the electromagnetic
spectrum.

When we observe a star or some other distant object we take
the emission pattern that we would normally expect from such
an object and search for it along the observed EM spectrum.

Live long and prosper.
 
  • #3


Originally posted by drag
Greetings !

Welcome to PF jakrabb ! :smile:

If the object moves away the frequency of the emmited
electromagnetic waves (light) will decrease (Doppler Effect),
if it moves towards us the frequency will increase.
The whole EM frequency range is called the electromagnetic
spectrum.

When we observe a star or some other distant object we take
the emission pattern that we would normally expect from such
an object and search for it along the observed EM spectrum.

Live long and prosper.
Greetings also!

To add to what drag correctly stated, it must be remembered that the "velocity" change we see, toward or away from us, is radial velocity only. That is, straight-line toward or away from us. Any proper motion (sideways or at any angle) can't be determined. But, when the tilt angle of a particular galaxy is known, we can use the radial velocity and the tilt to get an actual velocity, for example star velocity around the galactic center. The Massive black hole in the center of M87, a giant elliptical galaxy, was determined (required) by this method of measuring the velocity of stars orbiting near the core.

Also, the "correct" velocity of distant objects depends greatly on the value of the Hubble Parameter used at the time. For years, a value of Hv was used at 55km/sec./Mpc. Then, everyone was using any value between 55 and 75. Now, with new discoveries and new data, the figure of Hv is settled on at 71km/sec./Mpc. I don't doubt that this figure will change also, but it seems to fit observations for now.
 
  • #4
Originally posted by jakrabb
I am trying to understand how the doppler effect was used when determining that the other stars were moving away from us. I get that the spectral lines observed are shifted and by examining that data we can calculate how fast its moving and if it is towards or away from us. could anyone elaborate on this? can we actually tell a direction; is the margin of error large or small? ... i guess i just need more info to comprehend it all..

lines are shifted by two effects----ordinary doppler due to relative motion (visible e.g. in spectra of nearby stars) and cosmological redshift due to expansion of space (visible e.g. in spectra of distant galaxies)

the rate space is expanding has changed over the course of time and so the cosmological redshift cannot be ascribed to anyone particular radial velocity but must be related to how much space has expanded during all the time the light has been in transit

it may help to think of a distant galaxy as sitting still in the space around it---but that neighborhood of space is getting farther away from us

the standard formula for the cosmological redshift (as opposed to doppler) is in terms of a(temit) and a(trec) the scale-factor (indicating "size of universe" or "average distance between galaxies") at the time the light was emitted and at the time it was received.

1 + z = a(trec)/a(temit)

(see Eric Linder's online "cosmology overview" for this, or any of a bunch of other sources findable on google)

DOPPLER shift formula on the other hand is primarily for things in the same coordinate chart---same local coordinates----so that there is a well-defined radial velocity.
For things in the same locale, Special Relativity applies and we have the SR Doppler formula

1 + z = sqrt ((1 + beta)/(1 - beta))

here beta = v/c, the radial velocity expressed a fraction of light

this SR Doppler formula is approximately the same as a much simpler one without the square root:

1 + z = 1 + v/c

z = v/c

The approximation is fine as long as v/c is small, like 0.01 or less.

The sideways component of velocity (as contrasted with the radial component which Doppler indicates) has to be determined by different means, like noting a star's change in position over the course of years.

Any of this what you wanted?
 
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  • #5
thanks guys, that gets me started. and yes you were Very helpful marcus that is exactly the type of stuff i am looking for... i was trying to figure out if takeing different doppler readings from opposite sides of the sun might give different 'vectors' and give an idea of the true direction of a star

thanks :smile:
 
  • #6


Originally posted by marcus
lines are shifted by two effects----ordinary doppler due to relative motion (visible e.g. in spectra of nearby stars) and cosmological redshift due to expansion of space

Gravity itself causes redshifting as well.

Originally posted by marcus
DOPPLER shift formula on the other hand is primarily for things in the same coordinate chart---same local coordinates

Doppler formulae can breakdown over distances covered within the same coordinate chart.
 
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1. What is the Doppler Effect?

The Doppler Effect is the change in frequency or wavelength of a wave due to the relative motion between the source of the wave and the observer. In simpler terms, it describes the change in pitch or color of a wave when the source of the wave is moving towards or away from the observer.

2. How does the Doppler Effect relate to the Hubble Telescope and stars moving away?

The Hubble Telescope uses the Doppler Effect to measure the speed at which stars and galaxies are moving away from us. This is because the light emitted by these objects shifts towards the red end of the spectrum as they move away due to the expansion of the universe. By measuring this redshift, scientists can determine the speed and direction of the objects' movement.

3. How does the Doppler Effect support the Big Bang Theory?

The Doppler Effect provides evidence for the Big Bang Theory by showing that the universe is expanding. The redshift observed in the light from distant galaxies is consistent with the predicted redshift caused by the expansion of space. This supports the idea that the universe began from a single point and has been expanding ever since.

4. Can the Doppler Effect be observed with other types of waves besides light?

Yes, the Doppler Effect can be observed with all types of waves, including sound waves, water waves, and even seismic waves. In fact, the effect was first described in relation to sound waves by Austrian physicist Christian Doppler in 1842.

5. Can the Doppler Effect be used to measure the speed of objects in space?

Yes, the Doppler Effect can be used to measure the speed of objects in space, such as stars and galaxies. By analyzing the amount of redshift in the light emitted by these objects, scientists can calculate their speed and direction of motion. This information is crucial in understanding the structure and expansion of the universe.

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