Is mathematics prior to language ?

In summary, the conversation discusses the relationship between mathematics and language. It is argued that mathematics is often considered a universal language, although the idea of counting and basic mathematical concepts may be hardwired in animal brains. It is also mentioned that ancient civilizations had a basic understanding of mathematics, as evidenced by ancient mathematical writings. The conversation then delves into the connection between language development and the ability to form high-level abstractions, using an experiment with chimps as an example. It is concluded that language plays a crucial role in the development of abstract thought, and therefore, a sufficient level of language is necessary for a deeper understanding of mathematics.
  • #1
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I got this impression, but in this case, how could it be this way ?
 
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  • #2
What do you exactly mean with 'mathematics is prior to langue'?

Do you mean that we were able to rexognize mathematical truths (like 1+1=2) before we were able to express it in language?
 
  • #3
Mathematics is often called the universal language, so the question is nonsensical as stated. Most animals have been shown to be capable of counting up to five. This is thought to be a hardwired phenomenon related to the neural networks in animal brains. Whether or not this constitutes "mathematics" is another issue. The capacity for more complex and abstract mathematics and languages evidently comes after the ability to emote and reason.
 
  • #4
Well, we can prove a weaker fact, that mathematics is prior to writing. There exist tallies scratched on bone from the paleolithic era, some of which may be calendars. So people were counting back then.
 
  • #5
Wait.. we can prove that mathematics is prior to writing based on ancient mathematical writings? :smile:

Anyway, it's clear that we are born with very basic mathematical concepts such as counting and addition. Even the counting is very limited, as evidence has been found (IIRC) of primitive cultures whose number systems consisted of "1," "2," "3," and "many."

In modern cognitive theories, language development is typically associated with the ability to form high-level abstractions. This is backed up by evidence-- for example, they ran an experiment where chimps were rewarded if they could determine if a pair of objects exhibited the relationship of "sameness" or "difference." One group of chimps was given tokens to represent this relationship-- the chimps would label the pair with a green token if the objects were the same, red if different-- and the other group of chimps did not use tokens. (The tokens basically function like words-- they are labels used to represent abstract concepts.) It turns out that both groups of chimps did equally well in this initial experiment. But the experimenters then ran a higher-level form of the experiment, where the chimps would have to determine if the relationships between 2 pairs of objects were the same or different. (For instance, a pair consisting of two bananas and a pair consisting of two shoes would have higher-order sameness [both pairs have the same internal relationship: sameness], as would a pair consisting of a shoe and a crayon and another pair consisting of a ball and a stick [both pairs have the same internal relationship: difference]; whereas a pair consisting of two bananas and a pair consisting of a shoe and a crayon would have higher-order difference.) This time, the chimps with the tokens were able to understand the more abstract task whereas the chimps without the tokens were clueless. The explanation for this outcome is really elegant and goes a long way towards demonstrating exactly how intimately our capacity for intelligent abstract thought is bound up with our capacity for language. It goes like this: the chimps who had been using the tokens naturally created a simple mental association-- same = green, different = red. So what happens when they are presented with pair A consisting of a banana and a ball, and pair B consisting of a stick and a crayon? They recognize that the objects in A are different, and mentally label A with a red token. Same for B. So the abstract higher-level problem involving pairs of pairs has been reduced to one pair comparison: compare red token to red token. The two tokens are the same, so the system exhibits higher-level sameness and is labelled with a green token.

So anyway, language clearly seems to play a major role in capacity for abstract thought. Since mathematics is entirely abstract thought, I would say it's pretty conclusive that language needs to be developed to a sufficient degree before an understanding of mathematics (beyond basic counting, addition, and subtraction) becomes possible.
 

1. What is the relationship between mathematics and language?

The relationship between mathematics and language is complex and multifaceted. Some argue that mathematics is a language in and of itself, while others argue that mathematics is a tool used to communicate ideas and concepts that are ultimately expressed through language. It is also important to note that different branches of mathematics may have different relationships with language.

2. Is mathematics a universal language?

While some may argue that mathematics is a universal language due to its reliance on symbols and abstraction, others argue that mathematics is a culturally and socially constructed language that may vary across different cultures and contexts. Additionally, the interpretation and application of mathematical concepts may vary among individuals and societies.

3. Which came first, mathematics or language?

This is a highly debated question and there is no clear consensus. Some argue that mathematics is a natural language that existed before spoken language, while others argue that language developed first and mathematics was later developed as a means to communicate and understand complex ideas.

4. How does the development of language impact the development of mathematical concepts?

The development of language plays a crucial role in the development of mathematical concepts. Language allows us to communicate and share mathematical ideas, which in turn helps us to refine and expand our understanding of mathematical concepts. Additionally, language provides a framework for organizing and categorizing mathematical ideas.

5. Can mathematics exist without language?

It is difficult to imagine mathematics existing without some form of language, as language is used to communicate mathematical ideas and concepts. However, some argue that mathematics may exist as an abstract concept that does not require language to exist. This is a philosophical question that does not have a definitive answer.

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