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russ_watters
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Fair enough, Zero. You're not the one who proposed the analogy anyway.
Originally posted by Zero
Didn't I used to respect you? Too bad you had to post this screed against 'liberals', whoever they are.
The question you need to consider is this: if someone doesn't agree with you, or the chimp in the White House 100%, does that mean they are 100% opposed to you? Did you ever consider the vast grey area between the Bush plan and complete pacifism? Worshipping who? Because we don't worship Bush, we must worship his opposition?
Think on that, and try again.
Because, their Koran tells them that MuslimsOriginally posted by Laser Eyes
After 9/11 I saw many US politicians and others on TV making speeches about how terrible it was but one thing I never heard anyone say (and still haven't) is to ask "What is that we did that could have made someone hate us so much to want to do this to us?" Do you think some Arabs got out of bed one day and for no particular reason decided to form a terrorist group, go to America, learn how to fly, hijack four passenger jets and fly them into buildings to kill thousand of innocent people? There must have been a reason for it but one thing America will not do is look in the mirror to find it.
Originally posted by Laser Eyes
"What is that we did that could have made someone hate us so much to want to do this to us?"
Originally posted by drag
It tells them that they
must spread Islam across the world by any means
availible including force.
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
-Qu'ran 2:190YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
Originally posted by drag
Greetings !
It tells them that they
must spread Islam across the world by any means
availible including force. If they are unable
to do so then they can make alliances with some
of the "infidels" to defeat the others. Such
alliances can be broken, however, since they
are illegal because the were signed with
non-Muslims.
Further more, they believe that Islam will
deliver "them" - that is they will have great
life in "heaven". So, as they see the "infidels"
having good lives and themselves lying in the
"dirt" they simply can't stand it.
Originally posted by damgo
YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah...
PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah...
SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah...
The problem, kyle, is as damgo pointed out the followers of a religion do not necessarily follow the book. IMO, the dominating ideology of islam is violent. This does not mean the majority of muslims are violent, just that the violent ones are in charge. It doesn't matter that the Koran (as I have heard) intends Islam to be a religion of peace.i have actually studied the Koran and i don't think your position is justified at all
Originally posted by Alias
The above is a very good description of an "Islamist". "Islamism" should not be confused with the word "Islamic". A practictioner of "Islamism" would be titled an "Islamist"
All "Islamists" are Islamic(muslim), but not all Islamics(muslims) are "Islamists". Some unfamiliar with these exact terms may be using the less accurate "radical fundamentalist muslims" who are not necessarily "Islamists".
The distinction between "Muslims" and "Terrorist Islamists" should now be clear.
I have to totally, utterly, disagree. Just a question for you guys that think this -- are you basing this just on vague media reports, or on Moslems you know? Half my family is Moslem (and living in Iran to boot), and I run into lots of other Persians and Arabs around here. Islam is not a violent religion! It has its fair share of fanatics, and even mainstream Moslem leaders love to call on God and martyrdom to support their pet conflicts; but that doesn't mean much.the dominating ideology of islam is violent
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
-Matt 10:34
"Attack the land of Merathaim and those who live in Pekod. Pursue, kill and completely destroy them," declares the LORD .
"Do everything I have commanded you.
The noise of battle is in the land, the noise of great destruction!"
-Jer 50:21
The LORD said to Moses, "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people"...
Moses was angry with the officers of the army-the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds-who returned from the battle.
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Numbers 31:1-18
Damgo, reread my post. You completely and utterly missed my point.I have to totally, utterly, disagree. Just a question for you guys that think this -- are you basing this just on vague media reports, or on Moslems you know? Half my family is Moslem (and living in Iran to boot), and I run into lots of other Persians and Arabs around here. Islam is not a violent religion!
the violent ones are in charge
Originally posted by LURCH
So I'm afraid that, with regard to the question:
Originally posted by Laser Eyes
"What is that we did that could have made someone hate us so much to want to do this to us?"
the answer is, "We exist". [/B]
There's a wonderful invention called television -Originally posted by LURCH
Would anyone have an idea as to how much of the Arab or Muslim world is of this persuasion? From things I've seen in recent years, it would appear to be a very large segment, perhaps even the majority?
Originally posted by drag
Ever seen their non-religous population segments ?
I haven't. Every friday they all go and listen
and guess what they're told...
You forgot the main part - the Crusades.Originally posted by sir-pinski
Was the Christian faith (not the religious institution) or for that matter the Bible to blame for the Witch Hunts or for the Spanish Inquisition?
In my personal view - ANY religion is a problem.Originally posted by sir-pinski
...doesn't mean the religion is the problem.
Originally posted by drag
You forgot the main part - the Crusades.
Nevertheless, those were different times. In the
modern world people are (supposed to be) more
"inlighted".
Originally posted by drag
But, then again, look at some of the religions
in eastern asia. They seem to prove both you and
me wrong. Not only that they include no violence
whatsoever unlike Islam and never had violent
followers, they also value the kind of values
that I think many people should follow.(Although
the God/gods part is always in the way -
maybe if it were reformed to "optimal for the
human mind behaviour mode" or something.)
Ooops... Now that WAS bloody, indeed.Originally posted by sir-pinski
I don't know much of the history to these faiths...
Originally posted by damgo
I have to totally, utterly, disagree. Just a question for you guys that think this -- are you basing this just on vague media reports, or on Moslems you know? Half my family is Moslem (and living in Iran to boot), and I run into lots of other Persians and Arabs around here. Islam is not a violent religion! It has its fair share of fanatics, and even mainstream Moslem leaders love to call on God and martyrdom to support their pet conflicts; but that doesn't mean much.
Originally posted by sir-pinski
What about Taoism? Anybody know the roots to this?
Fair enough.Russ, that wasn't directed at you... I just pulled that quote without looking. Mainly I have noticed a general trend by some Americans to think Islam is inherently violent; which is unfortunately understandable if your main contact with Islam is hearing Saddam or Hamas calling for martyrdom. I beat this drum to try and get a better picture across; I'm not trying to accuse anyone.
One problem with that thesis - the US throws its weight around EVERYWHERE. And this doesn't cause hatred everywhere - only in some places. Germans and Frenchies disagree with us (pretty srongly) right now but they aren't flying airplanes into buildngs. WHY? Their disagreement is purely political (and economic). Islamic extremist hatred for the US is that plus religious, cultural, and racial. Those last 3 differences are where the hatred comes from - and there is nothing we can do to change that.Or perhaps certain western actions persuade these people to become fundamentalists. A lot of resentment can be generated this way. How would you feel if a large country simply threw it's weight around just to get what it wants without considering you. This has happened numerous times through history (in the US as well as other countries) and always causes problems.
Its not that simple. Sometimes it is impossible to separate the religion from the actions being taken in the name of the reigion. Untl Martin Luther, the Catholic Church WAS christianity and it was horribly corrupt. It was not possible to go against the Catholic church and still be a christian.Just because someone does something terrible in the name of religion doesn't mean the religion is the problem.
Originally posted by russ_watters
One problem with that thesis - the US throws its weight around EVERYWHERE. And this doesn't cause hatred everywhere - only in some places. Germans and Frenchies disagree with us (pretty srongly) right now but they aren't flying airplanes into buildngs. WHY? Their disagreement is purely political (and economic).
Originally posted by russ_watters
Its not that simple. Sometimes it is impossible to separate the religion from the actions being taken in the name of the reigion. Untl Martin Luther, the Catholic Church WAS christianity...
Thats my point! With all this anti-american sentiment, is a war likely between Germany and the US? Terrorism? Not even remotely possible. WHY!? Because our disagreements are only political and economic, not racial, religious, and cultural.Well I think it's a bit stronger than just strong disagreement at the moment. From what I have seen there is a growing resentment for the US, it's policies and cultural attitudes. It's not just the "frenchies" and the germans either. Anti-US sentiment is heavily on the increase in the UK and a large number of other countries which were previously quite close to the US. This is not just a war thing either, this has been on the increase for several years.
Originally posted by kyleb
well no one suggested that this would insight Germans to become terrorists anyway russ.
Indeed. You have a point there Njorl.Originally posted by Njorl
I think that one reason terrorism sprouts in the Arab and Muslim world is that there is no other vent for dissatisfaction. There is no political freedom. About the only two things one is free to express are one's faith, and anti-Westernism. Dissatisfaction with your government is not healthy to express.