Science or Dogma: Exploring Alternative Possibilities

[Ikonoclast]

I grew up believing the myth of the objective scientist

scientists are incredibly timid people, crippled by an excessive reverence for authority and orthodoxy. many subjects, no matter how interesting, are simply prohibited because they call into question long-standing beliefs. prestigious people are permitted to dominate entire fields of inquiry, which are populated by little people trying to protect their status, and some areas of 'science' have not progressed in decades. heavy-handed zealots dominate conventional academic inquiry, defending the intellectual status quo at all costs and quashing research proposals designed to explore alternative possibilities.
the holiest of holies - lightspeed - has been broken countless times in labs and cyclotrons around the world, but according to mainstream orthodoxy these events never occured. MBR has been proven to be isotropic by all data collected by CBR probes - disproving Big Bang Theory, but like any other group of priests and politicians...scientists lie and fudge their conclusions as much as the most distrusted professions in our society-- lawyers and car dealers

scientists will read this in anger and outrage - proclaiming "Lies All Lies"
and cheerleaders for SR will come to the rescue and attempt to beat this thread into submission - enjoy

there is no greater lie than the truth, and none more dangerous - Galileo

 

[jcsd]

I think you may a tad confused:
I suspect ion the first part you're referring to the effects of quantum tunnelling which can be consistently married to SR.

Your defintely confused about the big bang theory as the fact that the CMBR is isotropic to such a high degree is one of the main pieces of evidence FOR the big bang.

 

[ShawnD]

lightspeed - has been broken countless times in labs and cyclotrons around the world, but according to mainstream orthodoxy these events never occured.

It's funny but I can't find 1 site supporting that claim. Can you post a link?

 

[baffledMatt]

I grew up believing the myth of the objective scientist
scientists are incredibly timid people, crippled by an excessive reverence for authority and orthodoxy. many subjects, no matter how interesting, are simply prohibited because they call into question long-standing beliefs. prestigious people are permitted to dominate entire fields of inquiry, which are populated by little people trying to protect their status, and some areas of 'science' have not progressed in decades. heavy-handed zealots dominate conventional academic inquiry, defending the intellectual status quo at all costs and quashing research proposals designed to explore alternative possibilities.

I find it very sad that this has been your experience of science and I hope you have better luck in the future. But I think you might be interpreting scientists' reactions to revolutionary new theories a little harshly.

The thing is that if a scientist comes across a great new thing s/he will most likely want to get involved in it as quickly as possible. I'm sure every one of us has wished at some time or another they were there during the big descoveries of relativity, or quantum mechanics, or chaos theory etc. The only problem is that there are a great many wrong theories which come up - history keeps demonstrating this - so any new theory must encounter harsh criticism to have any chance of one day being accepted. The bigger the potential discovery, the more aggressive the resistance. But that's fine because it means if you try to publish "The answer to the universe is 42" then everyone will claw at you to try and prove you wrong. If they do, then fair game. But if they don't...

The frustrating thing is that all this takes time. A big new idea changes everyone's intuition and it takes a lot of time to get used to it. I wouldn't call this orthodoxy. Physicists use their intuition a lot and so of course they are going to get upset if it gets thrown upside down.

I think the only way for science to thrive is for debate and argument. Everyone wants to be correct at the end of the day (except some of the old professors who built their careers on wrong theories but they won't be around forever) so if you can convince them they will take your side.

scientists lie and fudge their conclusions as much as the most distrusted professions in our society-- lawyers and car dealers

I think this is quite a minority. True, many make genuine mistakes, but that's all part of the process.

But I really hope you have better experiences in the future. One of the best things I have found since starting my PhD is being able to have a meeting with a big uber-professor, argue for hours, and, just occasionally, end up being proven correct.

Matt

 

[swansont]

scientists are incredibly timid people, crippled by an excessive reverence for authority and orthodoxy.

We obviously don't know the same scientists.

 

[KingNothing]

I'm just the guy you need.

Here's an outline of my day as a typical scientist:

I wake up, look around my gray and dull room, and read the signs around my room of authoritative people saying "you suck" with angry looking faces. I look at my slippers on the floor, which are gray and have no features, and realize that the right footed slipper is on the left of the left footed one. i quickly think 'wow, that's unorthodox' and put them the right way. i feel crippled. I walk down the hallway, going commando style in nothing but a torn up gray lab coat, and begin transmitting information faster than light. but before i do that, i have to make sure i question whether or not it can happen.

I make sure to record all the results, and send them to newspapers and science journals where they never get published. Even when I pay money and print my own, people run in horror. so, then my gray cell phone goes off, and it's a party line of self-copnscious mumbling scientists arguing about why they have their status. since my cell phone and the sound waves go faster than light, they instantly understand what I am saying. no lag. thank you nokia.

i amke up obvious lies about how the world works - i tell them things like baseballs form naturally when a rabbit dies on a vernal equinox, because gravity will work just right to form a perfect sphere out of the hair, then evolution winds it all together in a baseball, then the walmart combine comes out to collect them for sale.

of course its wrong, but ****, I am prestigious, what's it matter?

I then hear mumbling about someone trying to do a new kind of research, so I hop in my truck and break up that party. on my way I see a police officer walking down the street, since he has authority, i make sure to stop and kiss his feet.

I then release a bunch of lies to the press saying the big bang theory is real, because you know, every scientist thinks that, even the little forum pricks that try to expose me think that we all think it's true.

I probe a little bit and prove MBR isotropic. why the heck not? I'm just going to report the opposite anyway, because that's what i do. I'm a ****ing drone.

I grab a beer with my buddies down at the used car dealership, and tell them everythign theyve ever been told is true.

I eventually go to bed, i almost piss my pants in the joy knowing i accomplished abso-****ing-lutely nothing, and that's what I will accomplish for the next decades, because I'm a normal scientist, and that's what I do. I can't wait for the next day of my hum-drum existence.

 

[energia]

Your defintely confused about the big bang theory as the fact that the CMBR is isotropic to such a high degree is one of the main pieces of evidence FOR the big bang.

actually ANISOTROPIC CMBR is one of the main claims of BBT
not Isotropic CMBR

When NASA sent up its COBE satellite in 1989, it found, at that time, a 3 K (or, to be more precise, a 2.735 ± 0.06 K) temperature—measured to an accuracy of 1 part in 10,000 (Peterson, 1990). In order for the early Universe to actually have formed in the manner in which they thought it did, scientists recognized that there must have been variations, however slight, in the background radiation. Yet, the background radiation seemed more pristine with each new look at the skies. the evidence of any serious fluctuations in the background radiation had been conspicuously absent, leaving the Big Bang concept riddled with problems for which there were seemingly no solutions

 

[Ikonoclast]

I think you may a tad confused:
I suspect ion the first part you're referring to the effects of quantum tunnelling which can be consistently married to SR

I'm very aware of the difference between QT and TeV accelerated particles
I won't say how I know what I know, but let's just say it comes from a reliable and inside source, there have been several TeV runs in non-collider mode, where c was exceeded, and the run data immediately edited

this happens far more often than you would ever believe

 

[Pierre]

I make sure to record all the results, and send them to newspapers and science journals where they never get published. Even when I pay money and print my own, people run in horror. so, then my gray cell phone goes off, and it's a party line of self-copnscious mumbling scientists arguing about why they have their status. since my cell phone and the sound waves go faster than light, they instantly understand what I am saying. no lag. thank you nokia.

Your are so right.

Most of science people are from good faith, honest who wish the better for mankind and the development of science.

But exactly like in a political party, he have to go with the will of the group, otherwise they will stay back bench. But the party line are maintain by the academics and have all to do with money and power.

And if, despict everything you are publish, you will be crually contest and even ridiculized.

History has plenty of such example:

Remember Fleischmann-Pons with their cold fusion. Or Jacques benveniste with his water memory effect, or more recently Paulina Zelitsky who found underwater structure along Cuban coast line who have been said by reputed scientist on reputed magazine to believe in little green man.

Even Hancock who have discover multiple underwater structure on which BBC have invested $500,000 to discredit them on TV

And what’s about Tesla who discover AC power, phases motor and many many more which had their finance cut out by Morgan when he report being able to transmit electrical power without wires.

And TT Brown with his electro gravitation who never been publish until some unofficial weird science group did.

And Mesmer with his hypnosis

Should we talk about Plato? Galileo? Coppernic? Newton?

Hundreds more example exist

Our science is from far for the mankind beneficial , in fact ou science is exactly where the money is and unfortunately this have nothing to do with the better of the mankind.

Pierre

 

[jcsd]

actually ANISOTROPIC CMBR is one of the main claims of BBT
not Isotropic CMBR

When NASA sent up its COBE satellite in 1989, it found, at that time, a 3 K (or, to be more precise, a 2.735 ± 0.06 K) temperature—measured to an accuracy of 1 part in 10,000 (Peterson, 1990). In order for the early Universe to actually have formed in the manner in which they thought it did, scientists recognized that there must have been variations, however slight, in the background radiation. Yet, the background radiation seemed more pristine with each new look at the skies. the evidence of any serious fluctuations in the background radiation had been conspicuously absent, leaving the Big Bang concept riddled with problems for which there were seemingly no solutions

BBT predicts a high degree of isotropy in the CMBR anyway, it's isotropy was the main piece of evidence for the big bang, infact other cosmological theories simply cannot explain this isotropy. Of course big bang theory also requires taht there be a tiny, but non-zero amount of anisotropy in order to explain the formation of clusters, galaxies, stars, etc. but this though it is only 1 part in 10,000 has already been detected.

 

[energia]

BBT predicts a high degree of isotropy in the CMBR anyway, it's isotropy was the main piece of evidence for the big bang, infact other cosmological theories simply cannot explain this isotropy. Of course big bang theory also requires taht there be a tiny, but non-zero amount of anisotropy in order to explain the formation of clusters, galaxies, stars, etc. but this though it is only 1 part in 10,000 has already been detected.

actually Edwin Hubble's interpretation of redshift being due to the Doppler effect was the main basis of BBT

many scientists had calculated a mean temperature of space at around 2,7K centuries before BBT

 

[jcsd]

Well, big bang theory originated before Hubble, though Hubble was the reason that it became accepted. Howver The homogenity and isotropy of the CMBR effectively killed any opposing theories dead, as there are other theories that can explain red-shift, howvere only BBT can explain the fact that the CMBR is homogenous and isotropic.

 

[pallidin]

I'm very aware of the difference between QT and TeV accelerated particles
I won't say how I know what I know, but let's just say it comes from a reliable and inside source, there have been several TeV runs in non-collider mode, where c was exceeded, and the run data immediately edited

this happens far more often than you would ever believe

I have a close friend, a Ph.D who works at Fermilab in Chicago. During a visit, he logged on from my non-secure computer to a secure network at Fermilab. I have seen run data, and it is true that run data is monitored on-site. If your "inside source" is from Fermilab I could attempt a private inquiry as to this claim.

 

[Ikonoclast]

I have a close friend, a Ph.D who works at Fermilab in Chicago. During a visit, he logged on from my non-secure computer to a secure network at Fermilab. I have seen run data, and it is true that run data is monitored on-site. If your "inside source" is from Fermilab I could attempt a private inquiry as to this claim.

no, the source is at an accelerator facility here in Europe

however I can't mention it by name for obvious reasons

 

[baffledMatt]

no, the source is at an accelerator facility here in Europe

however I can't mention it by name for obvious reasons

Oooh please tell. Is it CERN? ZEUS? I have friends at some of these places and it would be good to be able to warn them of this conspiracy.

Also, what do you think would happen if LHC turns on and they don't find the Higgs? In a second, decades of hard work (not to mention a missed Nobel prize here and there) will be in the bin.

What do you say. Will they deny it, or cover it up?

Matt

 

[energia]

Well, big bang theory originated before Hubble, though Hubble was the reason that it became accepted. Howver The homogenity and isotropy of the CMBR effectively killed any opposing theories dead, as there are other theories that can explain red-shift, howvere only BBT can explain the fact that the CMBR is homogenous and isotropic.

George Gamow was the first to fully develop Abbé Georges Lemaître's 'Cosmic Egg concept (c 1927) into Big Bang Theory in the 1940's (a term coined by Hoyle as a criticism) more than a decade after Hubbles discovery

there was no theory called Big Bang before Hoyles attack of Gamow's theory in the 40's

also there are several theories (old and new) other than BBT that predict MBR
Hoyles interpretation of steady state theory did not predict MBR
but it never stated that MBR should not exist either

there are many other steady state theories which do support MBR

 

[jcsd]

Which are these theories? I have to say that I'm unware of any cosomology that isn't a big bangh cosomolgy that produces such a homgenous and isotropic CMBR (that's not tio say that I doubt there existence as given the data it wouldn't be too difiicult to create an ad hoc theory to fit it), because the obvious conclusions about the object radiating the CMBR is that it must be relativily small and very far away (therefore far back in time as well), the onlyu object that in my mind could fit this descritpion is a smaller more dense phase of the universe.

 

[energia]

the existence of MBR is not in dispute, what is in dispute is the explanation for the phenomenon.

Sir Arthur Eddington - in his book, The Internal Constitution of the Stars (1926) provided an accurate explanation for this temperature found in space

In the book’s last chapter (“Diffuse Matter in Space”), he discussed the temperature in space

Eddington concluded that MBR was not due to some ancient explosion, but simply the background radiation from all of the heat sources that occupy the Universe.

He calculated the minimum temperature to which any particular body in space would cool, given the fact that such bodies constantly are immersed in the radiation of distant starlight. With no adjustable parameters, he obtained a value of 3,18 K (later refined to 2,8) about the same as the observed MBR known to exist today.

MBR has been seized upon by proponents of BBT as proof of an initial catastrophic beginning of our Universe. however, the temperature estimates of space were first published in 1896 by C.E. Guillaume, prior to George Gamow’s birth in 1904 - Guillaume’s estimation was 5-6 K, and rather than blaming that temperature on some type of “Big Bang” explosion, he credited the stars belonging to our own galaxy

in fact an infinite universe of stars would constantly be radiating heat in all directions which would in turn be absorbed by all the mass in the universe
resulting in a mean ambient temperature thoughout the cosmos of 2,7 K

the main argument against a stready state model is entropy, that an infinite eternal universe would have cooled to 0 K

supporters of BBT conveniently ignore the fact that entropy does not apply to radiant bodies

 

[ram2048]

something going faster than light doesn't mean it would arrive instantly. there's varying speeds of "faster than light" :|

 

[jcsd]

the existence of MBR is not in dispute, what is in dispute is the explanation for the phenomenon.

Sir Arthur Eddington - in his book, The Internal Constitution of the Stars (1926) provided an accurate explanation for this temperature found in space

In the book’s last chapter (“Diffuse Matter in Space”), he discussed the temperature in space

Eddington concluded that MBR was not due to some ancient explosion, but simply the background radiation from all of the heat sources that occupy the Universe.

He calculated the minimum temperature to which any particular body in space would cool, given the fact that such bodies constantly are immersed in the radiation of distant starlight. With no adjustable parameters, he obtained a value of 3,18 K (later refined to 2,8) about the same as the observed MBR known to exist today.

MBR has been seized upon by proponents of BBT as proof of an initial catastrophic beginning of our Universe. however, the temperature estimates of space were first published in 1896 by C.E. Guillaume, prior to George Gamow’s birth in 1904 - Guillaume’s estimation was 5-6 K, and rather than blaming that temperature on some type of “Big Bang” explosion, he credited the stars belonging to our own galaxy

in fact an infinite universe of stars would constantly be radiating heat in all directions which would in turn be absorbed by all the mass in the universe
resulting in a mean ambient temperature thoughout the cosmos of 2,7 K

the main argument against a stready state model is entropy, that an infinite eternal universe would have cooled to 0 K

supporters of BBT conveniently ignore the fact that entropy does not apply to radiant bodies

Unfoprtunately that was in 1927, the CMBR wasn't discovered until 1964 and there's no way of reproducing the CMBR in that manner. Yes you can use those methods to get a mean temperature (but note the temp. of 2.7 only applies to the CMBR the mean temp. of space inside a galaxy is higher), but you just don't get the CMBR's near perfect blackbody spectrum, isotrophy and homogenity.

The laws of thermodynamics apply to everything, there are no exceptions (well, except on a microscakle, but this merely reflects the statisical nature of the laws).

 

[energia]

The laws of thermodynamics apply to everything, there are no exceptions (well, except on a microscakle, but this merely reflects the statisical nature of the laws).

the laws of thermodynamics are conclusions - not absolutes

many so called 'laws' have been found to be conditional

no human being holds infinite cosmic truth in his little primate head to dictate what is a universal law - at the very best we can observe and make guesses, at the worst we can make mathematical models with no basis in reality

 

[jcsd]

the laws of thermodynamics are conclusions - not absolutes

many so called 'laws' have been found to be conditional

no human being is holds infinite cosmic truth in his little primate head to dictate what is a universal law - at the very best we can observe and make guesses, at the worst we can make mathematical models with no basis in reality

Yes, nothing in physics is absolute, but that's irrelevant. Thelaws of thermodynamics as formulated apply to everything.

 

[baffledMatt]

I won't say how I know what I know, but let's just say it comes from a reliable and inside source, there have been several TeV runs in non-collider mode, where c was exceeded, and the run data immediately edited

no, the source is at an accelerator facility here in Europe

however I can't mention it by name for obvious reasons

Phew, I was worried for a second. According to my own 'reliable sources' there is no European facility capable of TeV energies.

Matt

 

[energia]

the largest facility in the world is CERN in Switzerland

which is now capable of 1,5 TeV and will complete it's 14 TeV LHC accelerator in 2007

 

[baffledMatt]

the most power accelerator in the world is CERN in Switzerland

which is capable of 14 TeV and more

You mean the LHC?

Yes it certainly will be... once they've finished building it!

Matt

 

[russ_watters]

however I can't mention it by name for obvious reasons

Do you see the obvious irony here? Claiming a bias/flaw in scientists not following the scientific method, then refusing to follow it yourself. Classic, classic conspiracy theory.

What you have is an inability or unwillingness to accept reality at face value. I'm sorry, but that's not something we are equipped to help you with here.

 

[jcsd]

the most power accelerator in the world is CERN in Switzerland

which is capable of 14 TeV and more

CERN isn't an accelrator, it has sevral has sevral acelrators

Here's a list of the worlds particle accelartor's, including in most case their energies:

http://laacg1.lanl.gov/laacg/acclist/accdbs.html#S

here they are sorted by location:

http://www-elsa.physik.uni-bonn.de/Informationen/accelerator_list.html

The highest energy accelartor at CERN is 500 Gev - 1 TeV, the new collider which will be capable of 14 TeV (i've even heard as high as 30 TeV) isn't operational yet.

 

[energia]

I think we've found Ikonoclast's source anyway
it has to be CERN

it's the only european facility capable of 1 TeV

 

[energia]

Do you see the obvious irony here? Claiming a bias/flaw in scientists not following the scientific method, then refusing to follow it yourself. Classic, classic conspiracy theory.

What you have is an inability or unwillingness to accept reality at face value. I'm sorry, but that's not something we are equipped to help you with here.

or maybe he's unwilling to post his source because it might cost someone his job
or worse

 

[baffledMatt]

or maybe he's unwilling to post his source because it might cost someone his job
or worse

Is the sort of person who would fire you for carrying out good science likely to get a high position in an academic institution?

I asked my friend (who is a particle physicist) what he would do if he got data telling him c had been exceeded and his immediate reaction was:

"check the calibrations!"

Wouldn't this be a better explanation for the immediate fixing/removal of this sort of data?

Matt

 

[Imparcticle]

The laws of thermodynamics apply to everything, there are no exceptions (well, except on a microscakle, but this merely reflects the statisical nature of the laws).

Why not on a microscale?

 

[russ_watters]

Why not on a microscale?

On the microscale, quantum uncertainty breaks the symmetry for brief periods of time.

I think we've found Ikonoclast's source anyway...

That's not a source, that's a research facility. Ikonoclast has provided nothing but allegations.

 

[quartodeciman]

The problem with a discovery of something sensational like lightspeed excess from mass particles in an accelerator experiment is the mission of the experiment. The experiment is probably not about exceeding lightspeed but about something else. The effort is always a team effort with different goals. Making a fuss about lightspeed excess would distract attention and delay completion and publication. In other words, other people would be affected. I would expect that the raw data would be saved and the surprise event would remain uncommented. At a later time someone could reference it and perhaps make a case, when the experiment is already documented history.

---

There was an experiment around 1964 that did a lightspeed measure on backward-directed gamma rays from pion decays in an accelerator. I wish experiments like this would get updated, repeated and re-reported from time to time. The conclusion was that the speed of the gammas was unaffected by the high speed in the opposite direction of the center of mass of the pions.

Oh, Here it is-
Alvaeger F.J.M. Farley, J. Kjellman and I Wallin, Physics Letters 12, 260 (1964).
Measured the speed of gamma rays from the decay of fast pi0 (~0.99975 c) to be c with a resolution of 400 parts per million.

 

[energia]

Ikonoclast has provided nothing but allegations.

"I resent the allegation and I resent the allegator."

— From the Amos 'n' Andy
classic 1950's television series

at least this topic has succeeded in making an issue of accountablilty
as well as unleashing a gassy stinkbomb :yuck: