Reality and Energy: Exploring Others' Views

[Wolf]

Reality&Energy

I have certain beleives on reality and i was wondering about others view on exactly what reality is. i believe that what we see has reality is a physical representation of energy and that when one can do flips or any other physical or mental ability that is "imposiable" is because they have honed their own energy to do that and that any rule like gravity that aplies to reality actualy can be broken if the proper will,energy and training.

I would apreciate this imensly if i could get some others views on this for i am researching into the subject imensly.

 

[Wolf]

To add on to...

The proper name for the energy that one has is known as Chi the energy body

 

[Mumeishi]

Doing flips does not violate the laws of physics - it exploits them. The outward force is temporarily greater than the force of gravity - just like jumping up and down. Its pretty well understood and predictable - no additional mysterious forces are required.

As for reality, I'm of the opinion that ultimately existence as a whole might have no further description than that *it is*. The best and most wide-ranging theory of everything we have seems to be M-theory, which is just in its infancy. Everything is vibrations of different frequencies on bits of 'string' and 'branes'.

 

[Royce]

While some people can do seemingly amazing things using chi i would not call it breaking reality. That brigs to mind magic and chi is not magic. Controlling and maniplulating energy is something we do everyday such as turning on a light. Chi is no different. It may not be scientific but it is part of reality.

 

[Mumeishi]

The 'chi' interpretation of those forces is not scientific, but there is no violation of the known forces.

 

[Wolf]

Chi

If chi is manipulated in the right way the "laws" of physics can and have been broken it just takes a large amount of training and focus combined with will of the one using the chi and the "rules of existence" can be broken

 

[Mumeishi]

Is that statement based on actual evidence in any way?

These 'chi-masters' ought to be pretty famous, powerful and perhaps wealthy with these superhuman powers. They could go around fighting crime like spiderman or feed the poor by winning kung fu competitions.

Don't tell me... they're too humble for all these thing so they keep their powers secret. Should have known. So how do you know all about this?

 

[Mentat]

Play nice, Mumeishi .

Wolf, could you perhaps give a specific instance, of when a person has defied the laws of physics? Also, I wish to point out that the term "laws" is misleading, since they are really descriptions (or, rather, "prescriptions") of the way things in the Universe ought to work, based on empirical reasoning.

The Universe does not obey these "laws", they just explain how the Universe already is. Therefore, if someone is capable of doing something, then it is allowed for by the "laws of the Universe" by default, since the fact that it happened makes it "possible".

 

[Mentat]

Oh, btw, welcome to the PFs, Wolf.

It's good to have you here.

 

[Royce]

Good reply Mentat. You took the words right out of my mouth. While chi may not be explained or even acknowledged by science it obviously can not do the impossible and break the laws of physics. What can be done and has been done using chi or any other force has to be within the bounds of physics. We may not understand exactly how, what, where, or why and it may not agree with our preconceived notions of what physics is; but, if it can be done and it is real then it must fall within the laws of physics. We may have to change our description of those laws to take in and account for Chi but that is does not mean that the actual laws are broken just our understanding of them.
Some examples:

A small child lifting a grown man up off the floor.

Two weight lifters unable to lift the same man up off the floor.

Two strong men unable to bend the arm at the elbow of one man.

Walking on broken glass, breaking cement blocks and planks.

A small woman holding a large man down on the floor with just the edge her hands.

The list goes on and on. Some I have seen with my own eyes, some I have read about. I have done a few things myself that defy common, western, sense and science. I have written here about one experience of making the temperature of my hand read 108 degrees F. by will alone.

Try this: pinch and flick your ear lobes. Then make a circle with you thumb and second finger by placing the finger tips together. Have some one try to pull them apart. It should be fairly easy to do.
Now carress and pet your earlobes for a few seconds. Be nice to them and then do the same thing with your fingers. It should be much harder if not impossible for the same person to now pull your fingers apart. This has worked for everyone that I have seen try it reguardless of background or training. If it works for you please explain why to me. I'd really like to know.

 

[Mumeishi]

I seen Shaolin monks perform some pretty amazing stuff too.

All this stuff comes down to technique, leverage and so on. There are also people who have been impressing people for thousands of years with their apparently superhuman abilities - they are called 'illusionists'.

How do you know the weight-lifters were really trying? How do you know the child was unaided? Are you sure the situation was the same - same position, leverage etc?

Walking etc on sharp objects is done by spreading the weight evenly and being extremely gentle. Its probably not very comfortable, but if there are enough points of contact, the skin will not be penetrated. We're not made of butter.

Breaking blocks and planks is not superhuman. Its just technique. They teach it in karate classes.

The last one sounds like aikido. I've seen a frail old master holding down a much larger and younger student with a couple of fingers. Admittedly, i think the student wasn't trying all that hard, but it can be done and it is accomplished by continually adjusting the opponents balance, when he is at his weakest position, so that the act of getting up, literally never gets off the ground.

It's amazing what can be accomplished with good technique - a hard punch can be deflected with a flick of the wrist and a large man can be defeated by a small woman.

 

[Royce]

How do I know? I don't. I just told you some of what I've seen. It is not all a matter of leverage and technigue other than the technigue of controling chi, wieght, connection with the Earth and making the skin inpeneraterable.
The was a blound haired caucation from Jacksonville, NC. I think he was a Marine or former Marine wh was a sensi at a karate dojo there. The were at a tournament and he gave a few demonstrations. He was 5'10" or so and not a big man but not small. He walked out into the middle of the gymnasium floor and call out two (Now that I've thought more about this) small children about six years old and held his hand out from his sides and told the children to pick him up. They each took a hand and lifted him up as high as they could with their hands up over their heads. He told them to take away and hold up one of their hands and they did this. The man probably weighted around 180 and here he was being held up off the floor by one hand of two six year old on either side. I agree that the weight lifter who latter tried to lift him up off the floor but couldn't could be faking it but I don't think that they would do that under those circumstances.
reguardless there was no way to fake the two children lifting this grown man up.

 

[Mumeishi]

As I said, people have been doing tricks which would appear pretty much identical to that for centuries. You cannot assume that things are as they appear to be. There is not a single documented case of someone being able to use 'chi' to alter their weight by a single gram.

 

[Mumeishi]

It's also interesting that the styles which win these big prize-winning free-style competitions are not traditional, chi-wielding kung-fu or karate masters, but fit, talented, progressive and highly trained pragmaticists: Jeet June Do, Vale Tudo, shoot-fighters, Cuban boxers etc. Of course the traditional guys who can't compete will have their excuses why they are 'above' such competitions.

Although these competitions are not real street fights, they are the nearest thing to streetfighting under observervable conditions.

Personally I've trained in several different martial arts over the last ten years in this order: Northern Mantis Kung-fu, Eagle Claw Kung Fu, Wing Chun Kung Fu, Kicj-boxing, Jeet Kune Do. Yes, I could even 'feel a ball of chi between my palms' when guided to do so by one Sifu in Kowloon Park, Hong Kong. But, I'm not naive enough to assume that's what I was really feeling.

 

[Wolf]

no

you are right that was the point i have been inching towards that the current 'laws' need to be better defined and yes i do have proof of these things happening that poroblem i have with proving it is that i live in dartmouth nova scotia Canada if i could meet you then i could prove to you that that is all posiable through focusing of your chi the reason people like me who can manipulate there chi in such a way to do the 'imposiable' is that well what happens to a kid in school who is smarter then the rest of the kids by far... he is outcasted he is treated diferently people start tp use him...what hapenes to the guy or girl that is straonger then all the other's...theyer outcasted the only way people like me who can do what we do to live in society is to hind our ability...'the sly eagle hides it's tallons' we are forced by the way society acts to hind what we can do so we are not feared or outcasted and even used if people like me went around all the time doing these things then what would haeppen we would be watched more closely by people some would even not go near us or talk to us even trust us because our ability exceed the 'norm' so we hide and create groups of people that can do the same thing as us how do you think secret martial arts where created some people who did not want to take there ability public but wanted to be with others like them created there own secret groups martial arts means inm french 'special arts' that to me is the truest defination i have ever heard about it because that is what it is it just depends on how time and focus is put into it example i have been training for 6 years and yet i have 3 black belt's and can use my chi in way's that grand master's can but the grand master's have been training for over 30 years and yet me only 6 that is due to the amount of focus i have put into it argo explaining what i said about we all have chi but the more focused it is the better we are if you have any other qustion for me about chi be my guest and post them


p.s. thank you to the people who have welcomed me i am happy to be here

 

[Mumeishi]

Welcome Wolf!

Now prove it!

 

[Wolf]

prove what

you have not asked me a question

 

[Mumeishi]

You're claiming to have superhuman powers beyond that acknowledged or understood beyond normal science or society. The onus is on you to prove it. Otherwise why should anyone be impressed by your talk?

 

[Wolf]

The Claim

I claim that i have no superhuman abilities you asumed that i said that i can focus my chi into doing the claimed "imposible" also i cannot prove anything unless i was face to face with you other wise i cannot and besides i say i can do some things that people do not understand what they do not understand they claim has "evil or fear it" and the superhuman does what is completley imposible or it would not be "super" i do what people did not know can be done big diference

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Wolf
I claim that i have no superhuman abilities you asumed that i said that i can focus my chi into doing the claimed "imposible" also i cannot prove anything unless i was face to face with you other wise i cannot and besides i say i can do some things that people do not understand what they do not understand they claim has "evil or fear it" and the superhuman does what is completley imposible or it would not be "super" i do what people did not know can be done big diference

A little punctuation would be helpful, Wolf.

Anyway, something "super" just has to be miraculous, not impossible. In fact, if it were impossible, then it wouldn't happen. A miracle, OTOH, is what was previously considered impossible, but proved not to be.

 

[Mumeishi]

Why don't you go and prove it to your local skeptical society or the equivalent then?

What is you can actually do?

Bend your foot behind your head? Put your finger up one nostril and out the other? Backflips?

 

[Wolf]

The "imposible"

The imposible is only imposible until some one does it years ago the internet was thought to be imposible but it has been done so it is posible just has never been done before do you think that most see it as posible that a 15 teen year old can do 40 push up's with each arm? no but yet it can and has been done do you think that people see it as posible to jump into the air and float for 3 to 5 seconds before even moving down?do you think that people think it is poisble to run up and along walls? what about moving fater then almost anyone can see?? i have sudied martial arts for 6 years as i mentioned before and yet i have skill equal to poeple who have studied for 20 years and are in there physical prime this whole post started by me pretty much saying what is reality and why is it posible that human will can change reality if reality is all?i am wondering to what reality is i have come to the conculusion given the prove and information i have received to this point that reality is a physical representation of energy...and yet i still cannot phathom why can will break the "rules" of reality? is it because the "rules" have not been completely looked into and that what we determine the "imposible" is only that way because we have not done it yet..?or are some things trully "imposible" this whole conversation takes me to the saying "even if you have dropped a peble 1,ooo times keep dorbing for maybe one time it may float"this to me is saying maybe we ALL as human beings with will should try the some "imposible" things a thousand + times to see if it is really imposible maybe by conecting with our chi we could do the "imposible"

 

[Royce]

Wolf,
Strictly speaking, if something is impossible, it can never be done. If something can be done even in the far distant future under different technology then it is not impossible. The laws of physics and reality can not be broken most of the time but sometimes they can be circumvented as in tunneling. We are getting into quantum mechanics here and I am not an expert in this.
All of the things that you say that you can do or have seen done are all obviously possible. I have been told and read where levitation is frequently experienced by groups during group meditation.
The "laws" are not broken. They either are circuvented, or not wholly or completely understood, or don't apply under those circumstances.
There is nothing supernatural about any of it. The is no magic or miracle. It is simply the application of technigue and training that anyone can do with trainig and practice.
Sometimes all that is required is the knowldge that it can be done. I have experienced this myself. I have not studied martial arts myself but got involved while my son was taking karate. We would go to a tournament and see a demonstration and then go home ad try it ourselves. It would work at least to a degree. A simple example is the lifting of the man by a children. We saw that and when at home we tried it. My son would mentally ground himself to the Earth and I could not lift him at all. He then ungrounded himself and willed himself to be light and when I tried to lift him up it was almost as if he flew into the air. The same with bending the arm. Two grown strong men could not bend my arm at the elbow. I was not exerting any effort, simply ignoring their efforts and willing my arm not to bend. It amazes me how simple and natural it is; yet, it seems to defy common sense and physics. I can't explain it. I only know that it is chi.

 

[Mumeishi]

most see it as posible that a 15 teen year old can do 40 push up's with each arm?

I see no reason why that should be impossible. I've seen athletes and acrobats doing similar things. Its just a matter of training and a certain amount of talent.

no but yet it can and has been done do you think that people see it as posible to jump into the air and float for 3 to 5 seconds before even moving down?

It depends what you mean by 'float for 3 to 5 seconds '. A long jumper might stay in the air for a long time. 5 seconds seems excessive though. That does sound impossible unless you are falling or aided in some way. Why don't these super martials enter the Olympics?

do you think that people think it is poisble to run up and along walls?

I've seen that done. Its not impossible under the right circumstances - its mainly a matter of using momentum and g-force to get some grip on the surface I would have thought.

what about moving fater then almost anyone can see??

How fast is that? Measure it. Then I'll tell you whether you should enter the Olympics.

 

[Iacchus32]

Wouldn't it be fair to say that reality exists in layers? Beginnning with that which is most ineffible and ending with that which is most concrete? Now who's to say we don't have a spirit, or a soul, and that there is an afterlife, which in effect is a return to the beginning of everything we see before us? Indeed, what are mere physical limitations compared to that which is limitless and unbound by matter, The Spirit?

It wouldn't certainly seem like magic now wouldn't it?

Hmm ... what's that they say? "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak?"

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Wouldn't it be fair to say that reality exists in layers? Beginnning with that which is most ineffible and ending with that which is most concrete? Now who's to say we don't have a spirit, or a soul, and that there is an afterlife, which in effect is a return to the beginning of everything we see before us? Indeed, what are mere physical limitations compared to that which is limitless and unbound by matter, The Spirit?

It wouldn't certainly seem like magic now wouldn't it?

Hmm ... what's that they say? "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak?"

Well, you could be right, but I see adding the assumption of reality existing in such "layers" as you decribed to be an unnecessary addition (violation of Occam's Razor).

Also, I'd be careful of using the term "limitless" about the Spirit realm or anything else, if I were you...Wuliheron may not be too active recently, but...he's still out there .

Lastly, what would connect the physical realm with the non-physical?

 

[Mumeishi]

Lastly, what would connect the physical realm with the non-physical?

Email. IP/TCP technology (broadband).

Jeez, get with the program, dude.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Mumeishi
Email. IP/TCP technology (broadband).

Jeez, get with the program, dude.

LMBO! I meant that to be a serious question, dude. LOL!

Yes, as we all know, E-mail is both physical and non-physical, so it can interact with the physical but still isn't physical...it's a good thing this whole world really exists in my mind, and my mind is inside a matrix run by large purple cows who exist (of course) only in my mind...

 

[Mumeishi]

There is no logical necessity for data to run on a physical medium is there? It could run on a purely...um...spiritual medium. Why else do you think they call it an 'Ethernet' connection?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Mumeishi
There is no logical necessity for data to run on a physical medium is there? It could run on a purely...um...spiritual medium. Why else do you think they call it an 'Ethernet' connection?

Alright man, I believe the sarcasm has run its course, don't you? I agree as to the ridiculousness of these ideas, but your starting to get me confused as to when your joking and when your serious . Anyway (merely for the purpose of those who are still confused on this topic), sure, data could run on a "spiritual medium" but it would still have no way of interacting with the physical realm, and would thus never be noticed by physical beings (like us) at all.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Mentat
(SNIP) sure, data could run on a "spiritual medium" but it would still have no way of interacting with the physical realm, and would thus never be noticed by physical beings (like us) at all. (SNoP)

You keep saying that as if you have some kind of proof, please show it! otherwise, accept that mabey it does happen, and you just haven't figured it out yet, nor how it occurs.

 

[Royce]

Originally posted by Mentat
Alright man, I believe the sarcasm has run its course, don't you? I agree as to the ridiculousness of these ideas, but your starting to get me confused as to when your joking and when your serious . Anyway (merely for the purpose of those who are still confused on this topic), sure, data could run on a "spiritual medium" but it would still have no way of interacting with the physical realm, and would thus never be noticed by physical beings (like us) at all.

What you say would be true, Mentat, if we were purely physical beings; but, we are not just physical but mental and spiritual beings.
We have physical bodies, subjective minds and spirits or souls. All of these interact. We have talked at length about this in other threads and without getting into the objective/subjective thing again, there is more to reality and the universe than merely physical objective material things.

Part of what we are talking about in this thread is mind over matter and the mind and will enabling our bodies to do that which is beyound it's "normal" abilities. There simply is no way to explain what these people can do or make there bodies do in a purely physical or physilogical way. The mind and chi, the life force within, is what allows these things to happen. It is not a trick nor magic but focus and control. I have seen some of these thing happen with my own eyes and have don't a few simple things myself. It is real. It does happen and it is not illusion or delussion.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
You keep saying that as if you have some kind of proof, please show it! otherwise, accept that mabey it does happen, and you just haven't figured it out yet, nor how it occurs.

My apologies. I've explained this point numerous times on other threads, and just assumed most would remember what I'd said before...

btw, Dennett brings out this same point in Consciousness Explained...

P1: Any interaction occurring between physical objects is a "physical interaction".
P2: Any interaction occurring between non-physical objects is a "non-physical interaction".
P3: If a non-physical entity wished to interact with a physical entity, there would have to be an intermediary between the two realms that was neither physical nor non-physical (since a physical intermediary wouldn't be any help since one of the entities is already physical, and the same reasoning applies to a non-physical intermediary).
C: Therefore, a non-physical entity cannot interact with a physical one.

As it is, I omitted P4, which is that there can be no entity that is neither physical nor non-physical, since anything that is not physical is, by default, non-physical. However, this appears to me as much too self-evident for me to add it as a proposition without insulting someone's intelligence .

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Royce
What you say would be true, Mentat, if we were purely physical beings; but, we are not just physical but mental and spiritual beings.
We have physical bodies, subjective minds and spirits or souls. All of these interact. We have talked at length about this in other threads and without getting into the objective/subjective thing again, there is more to reality and the universe than merely physical objective material things.

This is, to me, a completely unfounded assumption. No offense, but do you really think it is correct to just state these as "truths", when so many, very intelligent, people and I disagree with those supposed "truths"? I don't know, but it just seems like added assumptions with no purpose...

Part of what we are talking about in this thread is mind over matter and the mind and will enabling our bodies to do that which is beyound it's "normal" abilities. There simply is no way to explain what these people can do or make there bodies do in a purely physical or physilogical way. The mind and chi, the life force within, is what allows these things to happen.

First off, there are indeed explanations (I don't know how to explain all of them, but I'm sure somebody does) that fit into a Materialistic paradigm.

But, more importantly, as per deductive logic, along with scientific reasoning on the matter, if these things (mind and chi) really had an effect on the physical realm, then they themselves would also (by default) have to be physical.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Mentat
(SNIP) P1: Any interaction occurring between physical objects is a "physical interaction".
P2: Any interaction occurring between non-physical objects is a "non-physical interaction".
P3: If a non-physical entity wished to interact with a physical entity, there would have to be an intermediary between the two realms that was neither physical nor non-physical (since a physical intermediary wouldn't be any help since one of the entities is already physical, and the same reasoning applies to a non-physical intermediary).
C: Therefore, a non-physical entity cannot interact with a physical one.
As it is, I omitted P4, which is that there can be no entity that is neither physical nor non-physical, since anything that is not physical is, by default, non-physical. However, this appears to me as much too self-evident for me to add it as a proposition without insulting someone's intelligence . (SNoP)

So like what??, light (non physical) CANNOT interact with me?? Huh?? What? (physical)

Aside from that (Don't care what Dennett says!) find me a "non physical entity" to prove your point please