Palestine, occupation and self-criticism

[Adam]

Israeli Justice Minister Yosef Lapid stunned Prime Minister Arial Sharon when he compared a television image with his personal experience of the Holocaust.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9810F710-617B-4CB3-BEC4-71060CEF21F0.htm

I'm surprised. Yes, Israel's activities are basically the same as we saw from NAZI Germany prior to WW2. But I didn't think I'd ever see anyone from the Israeli government admit it.

 

[Janitor]

Do you condemn what the Nazis did to the Jewish people in the 1930s and 1940s?

 

[Adam]

Not sure what it has to do with this thread, but yes.

 

[Janitor]

My question was out of curiosity as to whether you are someone who holds double standards about behavior. It would seem from your answer that you hold to a single standard, and that is admirable. I had thought about asking you which of these things you would like to see happen:

1. Australia given back to the aborigines
2. The nations comprising North and South America given back to the Native Americans
3. Israel given back to the Palestinians

But that too would not have to do directly with this thread.

 

[Adam]

Nope, it wouldn't.

 

[jcsd]

My question was out of curiosity as to whether you are someone who holds double standards about behavior. It would seem from your answer that you hold to a single standard, and that is admirable. I had thought about asking you which of these things you would like to see happen:

1. Australia given back to the aborigines
2. The nations comprising North and South America given back to the Native Americans
3. Israel given back to the Palestinians

But that too would not have to do directly with this thread.

NO but a fair solution would see Israel cede some land in order to accomadate the Palestinian refugees, and full compensation for land that was taken. As I said before we're not talking 300 odd years ago we're talking 50 years ago.

Howvere being realistic the Palestinians are unlikely to get a fair solution so the mininimum would be withdrwawl to the 1967 borders and removal of the settlers (there is no way that the settlements can saty as it would majke Palestine into a joke state carved up into bantustans by Israeli roads, with all the resources and best land being controlled by the Israelis).

 

[russ_watters]

Howvere being realistic the Palestinians are unlikely to get a fair solution so the mininimum would be withdrwawl to the 1967 borders and removal of the settlers...

That is probably the best solution, the problem is Israel is justifiably umoved by the arabs' desire for peace at all. Remember, the borders didn't spontaneously change in 1967 and little has changed in the attitudes of the arabs since then (except perhaps the realization that terrorism might be prefferable to open war).

 

[jcsd]

That is probably the best solution, the problem is Israel is justifiably umoved by the arabs' desire for peace at all. Remember, the borders didn't spontaneously change in 1967 and little has changed in the attitudes of the arabs since then (except perhaps the realization that terrorism might be prefferable to open war).

Yes, but that shift in tactics to terroism took many years and the 1967 war was not completl;y unjustified as 1. it was just a flare it what had been contiuned conflict 2. Israel in all honestly should never of been created in the firsta place as it's very existence necessitated the oppression and dispossesion of the Palestinians.

Isreal had the perefct chance during the nineites howver it blew it as it would not let go of the settlements, despite inetrnational expecttaions.

 

[adrenaline]

This is not to condone sharon's brutal policies. I despise Sharon but let's not confuse Sharon with Israel. But Israel, despite not being perfect, is doing its best under the circumstances. I don't recall anyone stating that Israel is perfect. But some things are very clear:

1) 1 side's goal is the others elimination (and they've written it in black and white)

2) 1 side has been actively funding, harboring, and promoting Terrorism targetting innocent civilians.

3) 1 side did not exist as a unique people until the Arabs found it "convenient" to leave them stranded in the dessert next to Israel.

4) 1 side has been kicked out of Jordan and Lebanon for there terroristic tactics.. ( I believe Arabs have killed far more Palestinians than Israel has)

The newly invented Palestinians are not Israel's responsiblity, they are everyone's. Israel owes it's hostile neighbors nothing. Never has the losing side been "owed" that land back. Never in history has the losing side been on a 50+ year campaign to call conquered lands "occupied territory"... that is... never before the Palestinian people invented themselves in the 1960s.

Israel took land during wars the Arabs started, and the "occupied territory" was not taken from the "Palestinians"and Yasser Arafat (contrary to what the Palestinians would have you believe). They captured the land from Jordan's King Hussein. YES, CAPTURED FROM JORDAN.

Now mind you, I sympathize and empathise with the Palestinians.

Let's not forget that this land was first in the hands of the Ottaman empire, then the Brits who divided it up among different Arab nations, etc. It never belonged to the Palestinians since they really did not exist until the last half of the 20th century. (Even Yassar Arafat is not "Palestenian" I believe he grew up in Cairo,Egypt.)

Back in 1948, the UN proposed two separate nations. One for Israel and one for the Arabs. The Israeli's agreed, but the Arabs didn't, and a war was fought over that and the Arabs lost.The country that would have made 'Palestine' in 1948 would have actually been LARGER than it would be today!

During the interwar years, when the region was a mandate to Britain, the British dubbed their entire mandate 'Palestine', not just the part where Modern Israel is. When they divided up the region after World War 2, they put 80% of the land into Jordan! So if Palestinians want their own state, then they already have one. Jordan is 80% of Palestine.

 

[Robert Zaleski]

Hear, hear! Adrenaline

 

[jcsd]

Adrennaline your post:

1) borders on racism

2) displays astoundinf ignorance and bigotry

3) repeats the worst propaganda of the extreme right-wing of Israel such Netanyahu

In answer to your first point:

1) Is completely untrue, certainly some extreme elemnts have had ideas like thi, but then again extreme elemnts in isarel have had exactly the same ideas.

The orginal statement of inetent was drive out the newly arrived immigarnts who took over Palestine in 1948, howver by the 1970's this policy had been abandoned.

2) Israel has killed many, many more innocent civilains than all the Palestinan groups combined, let's not forget either that the terrrorism is a direct result of Israel's disposseion and brutal occupation of the Palestinians.

3) Jewish nationalism didn't exist until the 19th century but I wouldn't be as stupid to say there's no such people as the Jews, Palestinan nationalism didn't exist until the early 20th century either (before being subsumed and suppressed by Arab nationalism. They do have a unique national identit, but that's immaterial anyway as whther or not they have national identity Israel had no right to throw them out of their homes.

4) Again astoundinmg ignorance of history. Black Septmeber happened after the 1967 war when the Palestinians became a majority in Jordan due to fleeing refugees. The Jordanian government felt threatend by the growing power of Palestian resistance groups and in 1970 a fighting erupted which ended with the Jordainian goivernment expelled the PLO. The war in Lebanon was caused by tensions between the ruling Christian minority and the Arab, Israel particpated in this war and under Sharon the Israeli army were involve din a massacre of a thousnad Palestinian civilains by a Phalangist miltia group.


The Palestinas are in the main Israel's responsibilty it threw them out of their homes and stole their land in 1948. No one else did this. The status of the West Bank and Gaza as occupied terrority is a legal one designted by the Foutrth geneva Convention.

A few other points:

1) The British adminstered Palestine and Transjordan toghetr for less than a decade under miltary rule, when the territories were mandated they were divided into Palestine and TransJjordan. It has been the favourite proprganda tool of the members of Israel's far right to say that Jordan is Palestine this is not the case it was never creted for this purpose.

2) it is unsuprsing that the Palestinoans found the 1948 partiton undesirable as it gave the majority of the land to the minority (which was constituted mostly of newly arrived immigarnts, many illegal) and even in the areas thta were designated as Jewish the Arabs still formed the majority anyway.


What you seem to be suggesting that because there ws no Palestina nation in 1948, it's prefectly acceptable for Israel to expel and refse re-entry to pakestian civilains who were completely uninvoved in the fighting.

 

[jcsd]

I also suggest you read up on the hisotry of the area this is a good place to strat as it has one of the most compherehensive hisotires and archived materials on the conflict on the web. The group itself is an israeli group dedicated to promoting peace and understanfding between Jews and Arabs:

http://www.mideastweb.org/

 

[adrenaline]

It's interesting, my Republican counterparts call me racist and bigotted because I support affirmative action with the contention that racism and sexism are still rampant and my liberal collegues call me the same thing because of my views on this matter...so I must be racist and bigotted.


Historical details aside, these are the facts as I see with the current situation.

The war in Palestine is not a fair fight. And guys like Sharone and tactics utilizing razing of civilian homes and such are only going to fuel the visceral hatred that the Palestinians feel. But also, in reality, if Israelis were to fight and give no quarter like the Palestinians, there wouldn't be a single Arab left alive in the country. (Because as we all know the Israelis outgun and outarm the Palestinians... the biblical David and Goliath and unfortunately terrorism is the stone being hurled at Goliath)


There are no easy solutions here. But one thing is for certain... there can be no peace as long as one side refuses to settle for less than the others elimination

So to reclarify my point number 1) Diplomacy has failed time and time again when the Palestinian leadership openly states it will refuse to do anything against it's terrorist Infrastructure...namely Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Fatah..

The PLO, whose charter is quite reasonable, state it's because they fear they'd start a "civil war. If the Palestinian leadership's action against it's Terrorist groups would start a civil war, the base for their support must be large?..no? How will a peace settlement come about ? The Palestinians are not truley being represented by the PLO, and Arafat is not in control of the PLO. Palestinian Terrorism is in control. Terrorism aimed at the elimination of Israel. And it is such that will spawn the likes of Sharone and this will go on indefinately.





Let me clarify. There is no doubt the Palestinian "identity" is real, which at this point is the shared experience and horror of displacement by a mixed group of Arabs (and at one time included Jews before the establishment of Israel). This is very unlike the Kurds or the Jews. My point was not to discount the Palestinian identity but to state that it is an Arabic ethnic and nation state with hundreds of years of identity is not right...which propaganda from the other side claims. That was what I was railing against, not that they now don't have their identity.


With that said, it doesn't mean they don't deserve their own land with which they can call their own. I'm with you on that one. Perhaps my attempt to argue semantics destroyed that.


No doubt most Israelis don't come from Israel. But the so called extreme factions of "Palestinians" ( which seems to be controlling the PLO as stated above ) claim Israel belongs to them because of some birthright.


They've been offered their own state, and rejected it each time. The facts surrounding which I admit to utter ignorance. It seems to me, instead of negotiating in good faith, the Palestinians have elected to walk from peace conferences each time with NOTHING...


Despite years of senseless and unsuccessful war, the Palestinian leadership, the majority of its population, and the broader Arab seemingly refuse to accept that Israel is not going to disappear.


The vast majority of Israelis favor a "two state solution" . I believe Israel has largely given up the "greater Israel" concept that dominated the first few decades after 1967. However, can the same be said of the Palestinian side?

In order to achieve peace the Palestinians and Israelis are going to have to compromise. To expect at this point that there will be no Israeli settlemets left on the west bank is unrealistic. To cling to this idea only worsens the daily lives of Palestinians. Ideally, I'd like them to have this land all to themselves, but I am being realistic.

To quote Abba Eban former Israeli UN ambassador "I think this is the first war in history where, on the morrow, the victors have sued for peace and the vanquished have immediately called for unconditional surrender".

In addition, Jewish settlements won't go away. An Israeli will ask...why can't Israelis live and work among the Palestinians?I believe 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs, and in the Olso years many Palestinians lived and worked in Israel. . Must the Palestinian state be entirely free of Jews which I believe is the majority feeling by the Palestinians? (Just as an aside under Palestinian law selling land to a Jew carries a death penalty, no such law exists in Israel but on the other hand, if a Jew marries a Arab from outside Israel they face expulsion...ugly tit for tat)


If we want to talk propqganda, my six months working in Doctors without Borders in that area taught me it exists in a more frightning way among the Palestinians. (we had Christian Palestinian medical staff who translated). Apparently, it is not uncommon for the children to be taught the Holocaust never happened. Thus, the only singular "real" reason for Israel's existence will now vanish from the reality of the new generation...and so the viscious, horrific cycle will perpetuate. (Albiet, this is just my personal experience and such "censored" teaching may only represent one refugee camp's social makeup.)

The way I look at it, both sides are reactionary in a sort of en masse, dysfunctional Post traumatic stress disorder type behavior. In other words, it is a viscious cycle that can only be broken from the outside. That's why the Israeli/palestinian problem should not soley be Israel's problem. The US needs to police or condemn Israel's brutal tactics more. The surrounding Arab nations who sit close to Israel's jugular (and are former wartime enemies ) need to come out and support the moderate Palestinian factions. (Their seeming silence against the extremists can only be seen by the Israelis as silent condoning of such activities.) Thus, both sides, Palestinians and Israeli Jews, are reacting like cornered prey.

 

[jcsd]

It's interesting, my Republican counterparts call me racist and bigotted because I support affirmative action with the contention that racism and sexism are still rampant and my liberal collegues call me the same thing because of my views on this matterso I must be racist and bigotted.

Well think about what you are saying, you are implying that it was perfectly okay for the Israelis to take the Palestinians land just because they were Arabs.

Also the 'Palestine is Jordan' myth is one that's only used by the Israeli far-right this and you rather distorted views of the ares histort let leads me to believe that your views are based entirly on propangada from thew Isreali far-right.

There are no easy solutions here. But one thing is for certain... there can be no peace as long as one side refuses to settle for less than the others elimination

Again that's pure propaganda, it has never been the Palsetinans intent to elimnate the Israelis, there intent has always been to get back rth elnad rthat was stolen from them. Since the seventies their effective goal has been a return to pre-1967 borders which is a very modest one consideriung that most of the land in Isreal (accepting the desert which was under publ;lic ownership)was under Arab ownership until it was stolen from them by the Israelis.

So to reclarify my point number 1) Diplomacy has failed time and time again when the Palestinian leadership openly states it will refuse to do anything against it's terrorist Infrastructure...namely Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Fatah..

1) and whose fault is it that diplomacy failed? The Israelis would not even talk to any Palestinan representives until after the first gulf war. During the nineties the had the perfect opurtunity to offer a fair peace deal but didn't and in every single deal since then have failed to live up to their obligations.

Again the Palestinan leadreship can do very little at the moment against the terrorist grioups and why should they when the Israelis launch unprovoked attacks on their policemen? The Israealis are far more responsible for Hamas than the PNA

The PLO, whose charter is quite reasonable, state it's because they fear they'd start a "civil war. If the Palestinian leadership's action against it's Terrorist groups would start a civil war, the base for their support must be large?..no? How will a peace settlement come about ? The Palestinians are not truley being represented by the PLO, and Arafat is not in control of the PLO. Palestinian Terrorism is in control. Terrorism aimed at the elimination of Israel. And it is such that will spawn the likes of Sharone and this will go on indefinately.

Again propganada the PLO charter was quitre reasoonable, it orginal stetd that all non-Palestinians would be expelled from Palestine (the defintion of Palestina explicitly includes Jews who arrived before 1948), certainly not unreazsnonable. This caluse was voted to be symboliv only in the seventies by the PLO before being dropped as part of ongoing peace talks in the nineties.

All terrorist groups have stated (even Hamams) that if Israel were to withdraw to it's pre-1967 borders they would cease opertaions.

Let me clarify. There is no doubt the Palestinian "identity" is real, which at this point is the shared experience and horror of displacement by a mixed group of Arabs (and at one time included Jews before the establishment of Israel). This is very unlike the Kurds or the Jews. My point was not to discount the Palestinian identity but to state that it is an Arabic ethnic and nation state with hundreds of years of identity is not right...which propaganda from the other side claims. That was what I was railing against, not that they now don't have their identity.

With that said, it doesn't mean they don't deserve their own land with which they can call their own. I'm with you on that one. Perhaps my attempt to argue semantics destroyed that.

And why don't the Palestinans deserve the land that was taken from them in Israel?

No doubt most Israelis don't come from Israel. But the so called extreme factions of "Palestinians" ( which seems to be controlling the PLO as stated above ) claim Israel belongs to them because of some birthright.

Again conbsidering that the Palestians owned most of Israel and where the majority there only 50 years ago, why don't they have the right to claim this? if they are not allowed to where does this leave Zionism?

They've been offered their own state, and rejected it each time. The facts surrounding which I admit to utter ignorance. It seems to me, instead of negotiating in good faith, the Palestinians have elected to walk from peace conferences each time with NOTHING...

They have only been offered statehood once, the offer was rejected, as 1) it was not a withdrawal to pre1967 borders 2) many of the settlemnts remained
3) the Israelis remained in control of the West Banks natural resources 4) the arae in the West Bank was non-contionous 5) The Israeli's remained in control of all the borders and airspace 6) even areas taht were supposedly to be given to the Palestina state were to be occupied by the Isaelis indefintely.

The Palestianns are not just going to accept such a patently unfair deal because Israel tries to intimdate them to do so.

Despite years of senseless and unsuccessful war, the Palestinian leadership, the majority of its population, and the broader Arab seemingly refuse to accept that Israel is not going to disappear.

Again claptrap, as I siadszince the seventies the efefctive goal has been the withdrawal of Israel from pre-1967 borders.

The vast majority of Israelis favor a "two state solution" . I believe Israel has largely given up the "greater Israel" concept that dominated the first few decades after 1967. However, can the same be said of the Palestinian side?

Most Palestians accept that only a two-state soltuion is realistic, bt there is certainly nothing wrong with them wishing to have the land that was stolen from them in 1948 returned.

In order to achieve peace the Palestinians and Israelis are going to have to compromise. To expect at this point that there will be no Israeli settlemets left on the west bank is unrealistic. To cling to this idea only worsens the daily lives of Palestinians. Ideally, I'd like them to have this land all to themselves, but I am being realistic.

Bull****, there is no realistic way that these settlemnts can remain and there be peace in the area. Israel has built them there illegally in order to to steal more land, they certainly should not be rewarded for this. No-one in the inetrantional community expects them to remain as part of a fianl stsus deal and Israel has no right to expect them to remain either.

To quote Abba Eban former Israeli UN ambassador "I think this is the first war in history where, on the morrow, the victors have sued for peace and the vanquished have immediately called for unconditional surrender".

In 1948 Israel refused to allow the refugees to return to their homes who give up the land it had captured that can hardly be seen as suing for peace.

In addition, Jewish settlements won't go away. An Israeli will ask...why can't Israelis live and work among the Palestinians?I believe 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs, and in the Olso years many Palestinians lived and worked in Israel. . Must the Palestinian state be entirely free of Jews which I believe is the majority feeling by the Palestinians? (Just as an aside under Palestinian law selling land to a Jew carries a death penalty, no such law exists in Israel but on the other hand, if a Jew marries a Arab from outside Israel they face expulsion...ugly tit for tat)

They can liev and work among the Paletinas, but the settlemnts are illegal (the Fourth Geneva conevtion) and on stolen land so they must go. The settlers have no right to live there and moved there knowinfg full well it was illegal and the land was stolen, the Israeli arabs on the other hand ar in Israel legally.

If we want to talk propqganda, my six months working in Doctors without Borders in that area taught me it exists in a more frightning way among the Palestinians. (we had Christian Palestinian medical staff who translated). Apparently, it is not uncommon for the children to be taught the Holocaust never happened. Thus, the only singular "real" reason for Israel's existence will now vanish from the reality of the new generation...and so the viscious, horrific cycle will perpetuate. (Albiet, this is just my personal experience and such "censored" teaching may only represent one refugee camp's social makeup.)

It's not uncommon, but you would not blive the depths of racism ON BOTH SIDES, it's hardly unique to the Palestinas

The way I look at it, both sides are reactionary in a sort of en masse, dysfunctional Post traumatic stress disorder type behavior. In other words, it is a viscious cycle that can only be broken from the outside. That's why the Israeli/palestinian problem should not soley be Israel's problem. The US needs to police or condemn Israel's brutal tactics more. The surrounding Arab nations who sit close to Israel's jugular (and are former wartime enemies ) need to come out and support the moderate Palestinian factions. (Their seeming silence against the extremists can only be seen by the Israelis as silent condoning of such activities.) Thus, both sides, Palestinians and Israeli Jews, are reacting like cornered prey.

The problem is you don't help at all, by distorting the motivations of the Palestinans and not recognising that the settlements have to go.