Can you beleive in both God and the Devil?

[Andy]

Whoa stroke of luck that i found this thread was still going, whilst lying in bed watching TV this morning, last nite can't remember which doesn't matter anyway. But some old man was saying that there was no such thing as the devil just Evil Spirits and that in the old testament evil spirits are referred to rather than the devil, but in the new testament they refer to the evil spirits as the devil.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Andy
Whoa stroke of luck that i found this thread was still going, whilst lying in bed watching TV this morning, last nite can't remember which doesn't matter anyway. But some old man was saying that there was no such thing as the devil just Evil Spirits and that in the old testament evil spirits are referred to rather than the devil, but in the new testament they refer to the evil spirits as the devil.

Actually I had referred to this thread on http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=64 and I guess Brian felt obliged to reply ...

 

[Dave]

I think it would be ok to believe in God and not the Devil, but not the other way around.
That's why devil worshippers make no sense to me!
They're admitting that the Devil and hell exists, but rather than aviod the torturous eternity of Hell, they make sure they get there...

 

[Andy]

Would the devil worshippers not get preferential treatment in hell?

 

[Dark Wing]

The whole "devil - God" thing is interesting if you plan to bring the bible into it.

In the bible, Satan is simply translated from the hebrew and the greek as "adversary". ie. anyone who is stopping u from doing what you want to do, or who is trying to hurt and or kill you is an adversary, and hence is satin.

example. there is a case where we have 2 identical passages in the bible - where basicly david is told to go and count his fighting men. sunsequently king david thinks "fantastic i have a huge army, let's go invade our neighbours" where his army is defeated and 2/3 of them are killed. Now, in the 1st passage it said that God told david to count his men, in the second it claims that it was Satan. everything else is identical.

another example. Balam and his donkey are wondering into yonder village to deliver a message. donkey "Satan" (who is later revieled to be an angel of God) stands in the way of the path, and the donkey freaks out and jumps aside. once balam realizes the angel is there (i think it was the angel gabriel, or maybe it was the other one) he sits back and the angel says 'surely if your donkey had not shyied, i would have killed you" and tell me now, who is more of an adversary then an angel who is about to kill you?

there is no fallen angel that is satan who is causing the evil in the world. all "evil" in the bible is sunbective to the story teller. as far as the 'good and evil' and God debate is concered, then evil simply becomes all that is in Gods way, or hindering Gods plan. Even the concept of hell dosent actuly appear in the bible. the only thing close was a description of Gahena, the pit of fire out side of Jherico ( i think it was) where they put all their rubbish, and the bodies of criminals after they killed them. The actual concept of hell came from dante's paintings, not from the bible. Satan, the falling star from heven, was a description of the fall of king nebecenezar. not of an angel being sent from heaven for doing wrong.

If you want me to clarify or be more specific on any of this, please let me know, i may not have expressed it very clearly.

 

[Another God]

The thing is with 'Satan Worshippers' is that they believe in something entirely unlike the devil which is conceived of by Christian society. They think that the Bible is essentially propaganda put out by the true evil God, while Satan is the good guy, being repressed by the domineering Evil God...

or something like that. No one in their right mind would worship something which guarantees them eternal torment. (Even if it got them 'Preferential treatment'...because preferential treatment of eternal torture, is still eternal torture...)

 

[Dark Wing]

Originally posted by Another God
No one in their right mind would worship something which guarantees them eternal torment. (Even if it got them 'Preferential treatment'...because preferential treatment of eternal torture, is still eternal torture...)

not sure about that. if you take the descrition of what the devil likes, and what hell is ment to be full of cause it is un god like - ie, the 7 dedly sins - then why does hell have to be eternal tourment? why is it not filled with lust and greet, and gluttony, and vanity, and all those things that humans love?

What is ment to be in heven? no huge amounts of glorious food, no wild nights, no beautiful people running everywhere - a yearning for these things landed you in hell on eath.

it is hard to think that the world is simply a "well, if you can hold out on all the good things in life while you are on earth, you shall get your fill of them eternaly in heaven" deal. if they are so against God while we are alive, then tell me, what is in heaven?

so why can't hell be eternal bliss? there is a quote that goes somthing like "Id rather go to hell cause between you and me, i think the devil would have more to talk about" not sure where it is from. But he's got a point.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Dark Wing
so why can't hell be eternal bliss? there is a quote that goes somthing like "Id rather go to hell cause between you and me, i think the devil would have more to talk about" not sure where it is from. But he's got a point.

Yes, imagine a sado-masochist entering his own paradise.

While I also understand heaven and hell are pretty much what you make of it. The only reason why hell exists is to give the Devil a viable alternative to being at "eternal odds" with those who can co-exist without the need to take it out on someone else.

 

[Andy]

Hmmm some very interesting posts here, i will ahve to post a more interesting reply when i can think of one.

 

[Dark Wing]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Yes, imagine a sado-masochist entering his own paradise.

While I also understand heaven and hell are pretty much what you make of it. The only reason why hell exists is to give the Devil a viable alternative to being at "eternal odds" with those who can co-exist without the need to take it out on someone else.

Taken that Heaven and Hell are simply what you make of it as there seems to be nothing "writtern" as such, then its quite viable to believe in God and the Devil. You can believe anything you want to, (not as in you can believe a light if off when it is on, more like you can choose to believe anything if you are a christian weighted in the direction of contemplating the exsistance of The Devil and God).

If you want to, and it seems reasonable to you, then believe in both. If it dosent seem reasonable, then those who believe in both should be putting up the arguments for their co-existance so we can all have a look at them. Then we can get into a "is it logically reasonable to believe in both the Devil and God".

It could be brought down to the Problem of evil, i guess. If God IS what the Christians (not neccesarily what the bible) says he is - ie omnicient, omnipotent and omni benevolant, then can the Devil exist? it seems that one of these traits have to go. Persoanlly, i do not believe that if there is a God he could be omni benevolant. even from looking at his text, there is no way omni benevolance can be seen as a trait.

But there may be good reason for the divil to exist even in this secenario - ie the free will defence - but still we have a problem here - an OMNI BENEVOLANT God should not be able to even wacth evil, even if it was for a so called "greater Godd" the most quoted argument in my knowledge for this argument is the so called "hero" argument - A hero is a good thing - is it worth the small amount of pain and 'evil' that is present (ie, a building on fire, or a village under attack) if it then allows for a "hero" to come along and save it? this is an "extreem good" that's is only avalible to be seen / experienced in the event of evil?

but this goes very deeply into the nature of God and then i guess the Nature of the Devil, and i am not sure this post wants to go there. if you are interested in going there, i am more than willing, it one of the more interesting debates in the philosophy of religion that i know of.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Dark Wing
Taken that Heaven and Hell are simply what you make of it as there seems to be nothing "writtern" as such, then its quite viable to believe in God and the Devil. You can believe anything you want to, (not as in you can believe a light if off when it is on, more like you can choose to believe anything if you are a christian weighted in the direction of contemplating the exsistance of The Devil and God).

I don't know that I've made myself clear here? However, this (the nature of heaven and hell) has been discussed in depth on a couple of other threads, Hell? and https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1072. If you would like to bring some ideas from there and post them here that would be fine or, if you look at some of my replies at the beginning of this thread, starting on page 2 I believe, then maybe you can reply to that?

 

[Royce]

When I was growing up Lucifer, Satan and the devil seemed to be used interchangebly which confused me no end. Later as I read in the Bible and was taught by more knowledgeable people I leaned that Lucifer was the brightest angel in Heaven and one of God's favorites but he rebelled against the will of God and talked other angels into rebelling also. One of these was Satan. Satan who is/was the prince of the earth/world (see John N.T.) was the spiritual being in charge of the Earth and all it's inhabitants. It was this Satan who tempted Adam and Eve into disobeying God and God's will. This is supposedly the fall of Man.
In the New Testament, the book of John, Jesus defeated Satan and took all of his power from him. Satan is without power over us or anything except for that power which we give him; i.e. we worship him or let him persuade us into doing something wrong, evil or against the will of God.
Supposedly Lucifer in being held in isolation and Satan is being held powerless on Earth and in isolation as is the Earth and consequently us, until judgement is passed upon them and us. This is supposedly why we see no evidence of God on earth.
None of this has anything to do with the Devil, who as I understand it is a product of Zoroaster who Iacchus32 mentioned earlier. Nor have I been able to find any mention of Hell or eternal damnation and punishment in the New Testament. I haven't read all of the O.T. so I don't know about there. To me the word "evil" has always been an adjective not a noun.
It seems to me that to belief in both God and the Devil in constant battle over our souls is a metaphor of our interal struggle between what we think is right, good and bad, evil. If it isn't that but a belief that the Devil and Hell actually exist, then it seems to me that this is polytheism, a belief in two gods of nearly equal power.
This I do not believe in and wonder at Christian who profess to and claim to believe in the literal translation of the Bible or fundamentalism. They are either IMO ignorant of what they are saying and implying or they are far better mental gymnasts and jugglers than I am.

BTW Sin as I understand it, is knowly disobeying or going against the will of God. What evil we do to each other as well as ourselves are trespasses not sins. Sins can only be commited against God; hense, "Forgive us our sins and we forgive those who trespass against us." in the Lords prayer.

All of this is a mental compilation and reconcilliation of what I have read, studied and been told over the years and are from many different scources. In short append IMO to all of it or take it for what it's worth though some of it is based on some authority or another.

 

[Dark Wing]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
I don't know that I've made myself clear here? However, this (the nature of heaven and hell) has been discussed in depth on a couple of other threads, Hell? and https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1072. If you would like to bring some ideas from there and post them here that would be fine or, if you look at some of my replies at the beginning of this thread, starting on page 2 I believe, then maybe you can reply to that?

thankyou for this, i will most certianly look at these links... this is a subject that i have great interest in, and am always interested in new opinions in this area... i have not seen much or read much on peoples thoughts on the nature of these two worlds. i will look and reply to them there...

 

[Dark Wing]

Originally posted by Royce
When I was growing up Lucifer, Satan and the devil seemed to be used interchangebly which confused me no end. Later as I read in the Bible and was taught by more knowledgeable people I leaned that Lucifer was the brightest angel in Heaven and one of God's favorites but he rebelled against the will of God and talked other angels into rebelling also. One of these was Satan. Satan who is/was the prince of the earth/world (see John N.T.) was the spiritual being in charge of the Earth and all it's inhabitants. It was this Satan who tempted Adam and Eve into disobeying God and God's will. This is supposedly the fall of Man.

This is very interesting for me to hear about. i have never heard of lucifer being an angel held in respect by God who rebelled. Do you know where they got this from, i would be very interested in reaserching more into this area.

Satan, however, that is an intersting topic. I was aware of him ebing named the prince of men, and that does not surprise me much, though i would like to know where they did get the refence of him also being an angel of God.

as far as i can tell, the refrence most used to describe Satans decent from the heavens is where they are describing a falling star in the old testement around the time of the king Nebecaneza - but how they related that to being the fall of satan, and not the fall of the king, i do not know, nor will they tell me, nor does it explain how Satan could have been around on Earth rebelling and making Adam and Eve sin. If you could post me some refrences, i would like to look at their material for this, it is of great interest to me.

In the New Testament, the book of John, Jesus defeated Satan and took all of his power from him. Satan is without power over us or anything except for that power which we give him; i.e. we worship him or let him persuade us into doing something wrong, evil or against the will of God.

Yes, it is true that jesus defeated satan in the desert. But then he took all of his power? i am not aware of this refrence, plase post the quotes for me to look at.

A far as i could make it, the 'defeating' of satan was simply him ignoring the pharacies and the sagusies who were following him around in the desert, trying to get him to show off his powers. he enterd the desert with no food and no water, and they were telling him to turn rocks into food, and to call down leauges of angels to show off the fact that he had this power. but as John said, there are only 3 real sins - the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and pride in life. He defeated all these things, and hence defeated Satan. Satan, as far as my reading, has never been some mystical entity or fallen angel, but has simply been the incarnation of ANYONE that is in the way of what you are doing. You are challanging God? you are Gods Adversary, which is all 'Satin" actully means. God is Trying to kill you? the God is your adversary, and hence is Satan. I have writtern a post describing this in more detail a little back if you wish more on this, then let me know and i will try to explain what i have come to think of as far as Satan is concerned. Any information you wish me to read, plase post it for me, i am more than interested in this topic and the things people have said about it, and any writings describing them as Angels will be more than welcome reading for me.

Supposedly Lucifer in being held in isolation and Satan is being held powerless on Earth and in isolation as is the Earth and consequently us, until judgement is passed upon them and us. This is supposedly why we see no evidence of God on earth.

this is impressive. any more explanation on where this theory came from would be very welcome.

It seems to me that to belief in both God and the Devil in constant battle over our souls is a metaphor of our interal struggle between what we think is right, good and bad, evil. If it isn't that but a belief that the Devil and Hell actually exist, then it seems to me that this is polytheism, a belief in two gods of nearly equal power.

maybe. but again, that just depends on what you mean as the devil, and weather God has let him live and exist for reasons of freewill (a defence that seems rather pointless from my prespective of what evil actually is) if God is still able to dystroy the devil if he wishes, but leaves him there for some reason not known to us (a very dodgy defence) then it does not need to be polytheism...

This I do not believe in and wonder at Christian who profess to and claim to believe in the literal translation of the Bible or fundamentalism. They are either IMO ignorant of what they are saying and implying or they are far better mental gymnasts and jugglers than I am.

what do you take to litral translation of the bible? The devil and Lucifer never actuly apear in the bible, nor does the concept of the trinity or going to heven or hell when you die. infact, hell is not even mentioned. Satin was always just a wrod for adversary. this is why i wish to know your sources, as i have never seen such things mentioned in the bible. but if you have read somthing i have not, then please, i would like you to post any new information you have for me.

All of this is a mental compilation and reconcilliation of what I have read, studied and been told over the years and are from many different scources. In short append IMO to all of it or take it for what it's worth though some of it is based on some authority or another.

ok, but if you do have any sources... please, i would really like to see where you have come across your ideas and what makes you think this way..

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Dark Wing
thankyou for this, i will most certianly look at these links... this is a subject that i have great interest in, and am always interested in new opinions in this area... i have not seen much or read much on peoples thoughts on the nature of these two worlds. i will look and reply to them there...

I also recommend the thread on Heaven?, as it includes some of the material that I thought was in the Hell? thread.

While one of the best books in my opinion is Emanuel Swedenborg's, Heaven and Hell, available through the Swedenborg Foundation. I've quoted from this from time to time, and believe I've quoted it in the links mentioned above.

 

[Royce]

Dark wing, I,m sorry but I do not have any sources other than the bible. I had thought that all of this was somewhere in the bible.
some of it was told to me by various preachers and or ministers, some I learned in religious classes that I was required to take because the extention that I went to was that of a religious college, some I found or couldn't find in the bible. Some of it was read and learned and later varified from other sources from a book named "The Urantia Book" of which I have read but know nothing of it's origins or authority. Sorry.

 

[Dark Wing]

Originally posted by Royce
Dark wing, I,m sorry but I do not have any sources other than the bible. I had thought that all of this was somewhere in the bible.
some of it was told to me by various preachers and or ministers, some I learned in religious classes that I was required to take because the extention that I went to was that of a religious college, some I found or couldn't find in the bible. Some of it was read and learned and later varified from other sources from a book named "The Urantia Book" of which I have read but know nothing of it's origins or authority. Sorry.

unfortunatly many things are attributed to the bible that are not actuly in there, especily by members of the church. i have been searching through my concordances for refrences to the things you have mentioned, but have so far come up empty handed.

if there is anyway of you being able to find out where these refrences came from, they would be of great interest for me... I shall look for "the urantia book' and read that as well to see what it has to say, thankyou for the book, it may prove interesting reading...

thankyou.

 

[Another God]

Doing a search on Yahoo for The Urantia Book gets all you need.
There is an online version of it at http://www.ubfellowship.org/ , and you can even buy a hard copy of the book from that website.