Americans are culturally inferior

[shonagon53]

"Americans are culturally inferior" was of course just a title to get a debate going. Less virulent than "Americans are genetically superior", I think.



So please, let's focus on the original question.

How to cope with Empire, and what are the longterm effects of an imperial culture on both that culture itself, and on other cultures.

 

[Shadow]

Again, when the world sees America as the biggest threat to world peace, then the questions should be focused around the future of the American Empire, and on how to cope with it today

The biggest threat to world peace is people like you who criticize America for helping smaller countries and taking it's role as the leading superpower. Saddam had to go down, the taliban had to go down, al quedqa had to go down. Or, since you are so anti american, do you support terrorism too? We aren't the biggest threat to world peace, we are trying to make world peace. You can't have world peace with tyrants and dictators like in Iraq and liberia.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Shadow
I pary that the EU does not become the leading superpower, there is no good to come of it and if you cannot see that then you are blind.

*nervous laugh* we've already seen what happens when Europians become super powers and it ain't pretty...in fact I dare say many of the issues in the middle east, past and present issues in the NEW Europe and definitely issues in Africa(Ivory coast, rwanda etc.) can be traced directly to actions of OLD Europe I'd also suggest that past guilt is the physicological base of which much of OLD Europes anti-Ameircan vitriol is built upon. The thought of a France-German-Russia based superpower...makes me shudder..in fact I believe I just felt the Earth tremble just thinking about it. Their combined history makes the U.S. government look like a bunch of boyscouts. If that's cultural superiority they are welcomed to it.

 

[Zero]

This one's about done, isn't it?

 

[kat]

Originally posted by shonagon53
Sir, I'm sorry, I don't understand your problem. When I said that more South Koreans see America as a bigger threat than North Korea, I only read the results of a poll.

I'm sorry if you can't cope with that. Wether I put it in quotes or not, doesn't change the fact.

Please visit this link, and see for yourself (this is really the third and last time I ask you to do this little effort). You will see that it says: "Who is more dangerous? Q: America or North Korea?" and the answer reads: "49% of South Koreans see America as a bigger threat to peace and stability, 39% of them see North Korea as the
bigger threat".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/programmes/wtwta/poll/html/military/global_security.stm



Wheter I put this in quotes or not, has nothing to do with the subject. Please visit the link, and talk about the subject, not about details.

How is it possible that more South Koreans see America as the biggest threat compared to North Korea? I mean, this is an incredible idea--having in mind that America sees South Korea as an ally against North Korea, having in mind that America thinks everyone agrees that North Korea is more evil than themselves, while the immediate neighbours of that country see it totally differently. I means that's a disastrous poll result!

Shonagon- S.Koreans don't state that they see the U.S. as a greater "threat", they state that it is more "dangerous"..subtle difference I know..but a difference none the less. It is also important to know what term "dangerous" was translated to/from in the polls, a simple study of the different linguistic meanings of the term "roadmap" as translated into other countries media and polls can be very eye opening.
I find it impacting and interesting that (according to this poll) although South Korea finds the U.S. more DANGEROUS then North Korea it also finds that U.S. presence in that area of the country "increases peace and stability". This suggest a bit of a conundrum, don't you agree?

 

[shonagon53]

Kat, "ok".

So you don't accept the validity of that statement. That's your choice.

I think it's only very obvious that Americans have a special "now-i'm-in-denial" button or an "i don't want to know" mode. Because whenever anyone points to what others think about America, there's always something wrong with either the translation, the context or the content.

I think this is dangerous. Americans have been denying way too many things for way too long, with the result that today they're the most unwelcome nation on the planet.

It's not too late. But America needs a change in its mentality. Americans need to understand that when other people say "hey, stop doing this, we don't like this", that they don't have to interpret it selfindulgently as "hey, these people like us!". Americans don't read other cultures well, that's a wellknown fact in international politics and diplomacy.
In fact, it's almost hilarious to see how different American's ideas of their actions in Iraq and the actual reality on the field are, just to give an example. Afghanistan would be another example. Vietnam another.


But a certain blindness towards others is crucial in the workings of an Empire. That's well known. Only, there's a certain treshold, a certain limit, a certain breakingpoint, when you cross that, the fall is near.

I think we're seeing America nearing that point today. Anti-Americanism is an incredibly dangerous power. It is something every American should ask questions about. But real questions. This takes courage. And I admire the Americans who dare pose these questions. Many of them just aren't up to it yet.

 

[kat]

shonagon53 "Ok"

Since your too busy declaring blindness that you obviously missed my rather pertinant question, I'll ask it again!

I find it impacting and interesting that (according to this poll) although South Korea finds the U.S. more DANGEROUS then North Korea it also finds that U.S. presence in that area of the country "increases peace and stability". This suggest a bit of a conundrum, don't you agree?

 

[Zero]

Kat, I think shonagon53's post is more relevant to this thread than your specific question.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Zero
Kat, I think shonagon53's post is more relevant to this thread than your specific question.

Lol, I was under the impression (primarily because I was addressed) that his post was in response to mine...

Conflicting views such as displayed by the Koreans response to the 2 questions within the same poll should not be ignored when trying to dicipher a world view in regards to the U.S.. How is one "more dangerous" and yet at the same time bring "peace and stability"?
Requesting specifics on poll methodology is always a good idea, and in this case particularly important when one considers the possibility of varied methods, and terminology impacting the outcome. Understanding this and questioning isn't resorting to "now-i'm-in-denial" button or an "i don't want to know" mode." It's appropriate and neccesary, particularly when it shows conflicting replies.

 

[Zero]

Sure, Kat, but I think you are missing teh forest for the trees...amd I also think he makes a good point about the blindness and 'head in the sand' attitude of Americans, although I can't show that other cultures don't do the same thing.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Zero
Sure, Kat, but I think you are missing teh forest for the trees...amd I also think he makes a good point about the blindness and 'head in the sand' attitude of Americans, although I can't show that other cultures don't do the same thing.

LOl, Zero, he makes 3 pages worth of post on a poll, specificly focusing on a statement concerning the "threat" that Korea feels from the U.S., specificly focusing on a statement that DOESN"T exist and then you find that it's not pertinent to point out that it is HE (not to mention maybe even THEY) who has his head in the sand if he cant' see the problems with (at the very least) conflicting statements from a country who's opinion your basing your argument on?

Quite honestly, Zero, if you can't see, much less identify the trees in the forest, the forest isn't very pertinent. Not to mention if you're busy burning the forest for fuel you might want to be able to identify the hardwood from the softwood eh?

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by shonagon53
Sir, I'm sorry, I don't understand your problem. When I said that more South Koreans see America as a bigger threat than North Korea, I only read the results of a poll.

I'm sorry if you can't cope with that. Wether I put it in quotes or not, doesn't change the fact...

So you don't accept the validity of that statement. That's your choice.

I say again: a quote that isn't a quote is a LIE. Stop posting LIES. I'm not sure if you are doing it on purpose and intending to decieve or if you just are blinded by your bias, but either way, your continued misquoting of that report isn't helping you prove your point.

 

[Monique]

So to correct the problem:

The poll says:

QUOTE "49% of South Koreans view America to be more dangerous than North Korea, 39% of them view North Korea to be more dangerous".

So Shonagon53, don't interpret or change the wording of the poll when you put it in quotation marks.

For reference: this is the wrong way to quote the results: "Who is more dangerous? Q: America or North Korea?" and the answer reads: "49% of South Koreans see America as a bigger threat to peace and stability, 39% of them see North Korea as the bigger threat".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/programmes/wtwta/poll/html/military/global_security.stm

 

[shonagon53]

Originally posted by kat
shonagon53 "Ok"

Since your too busy declaring blindness that you obviously missed my rather pertinant question, I'll ask it again!

Kat, I agree, I didn't read your statement carefully.

That's a strange combination indeed, although not necessary a contradiction.

They see America as more dangerous and still as a stabilizing factor. This doesn't logically imply they see North Korea as a "destabilizing" factor. Since the poll didn't ask about that, we don't know.

But it's indeed odd to see America as being dangerous and stabilizing at the same time. However, I think this ambiguity is one of the most pertinent aspects of people's relations with the US. On the one hand they admire it for many things, on the other hand, they abhorr it.









[I should have read your comment more carefully.]

 

[shonagon53]

Originally posted by Monique
So to correct the problem:

The poll says:

QUOTE "49% of South Koreans view America to be more dangerous than North Korea, 39% of them view North Korea to be more dangerous".

So Shonagon53, don't interpret or change the wording of the poll when you put it in quotation marks.

For reference: this is the wrong way to quote the results: "Who is more dangerous? Q: America or North Korea?" and the answer reads: "49% of South Koreans see America as a bigger threat to peace and stability, 39% of them see North Korea as the bigger threat".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/programmes/wtwta/poll/html/military/global_security.stm

Lol, still about that quote?

There must be a linguistic particularity about the thing. In my native language, there's not so much stress on "quotes" between "quotation marks". If I had know that this would be a crux in a far broader debate, I wouldn't have made the "mistake" (is it ok to use quotation marks for the word "mistake", if I want to stress the relativity of the term and in order to imply a certain irony? In my language we can do it this way. It's not a quote but a "hyphenation"--I'm not sure if I spelled "hyphenation" correctly.).

Ok.

So one more time. I quoted something that couldn't be quoted because it wasn't literally mentioned in the text on the webpage, so I quoted a transcription or a translation of the original message which I made up in my own mind, but which semantically equals the original message and I shouldn't have done this. I agree.

Can we now continue the discussion.

I suggest we stop talking about that regretful mistake of the quote here.






Kat is right about the accuracy of the poll. It has to be read carefully. But about possible translation errors: the poll was translated into Korean by bilingual Korean-English speakers. 11 national TV networks can't afford to make translation mistakes. And considering the BBC has a long tradition of airing and working on over 20 languages, Korean included, I think doubts about it may be a detail.

I mean, we must see things in perspective. The fact alone that such a unique poll is being organized is highly significant. Let's not waste too much time over technical details. These people are professional poll makers. I trust their expertise.


Let's now interpret the poll.

Or let's talk about why anti-American is dangerous, justified, necessary, evil or just there.

 

[Shadow]

if you want to do that, make another topic.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by kat
LOl, Zero, he makes 3 pages worth of post on a poll, specificly focusing on a statement concerning the "threat" that Korea feels from the U.S., specificly focusing on a statement that DOESN"T exist and then you find that it's not pertinent to point out that it is HE (not to mention maybe even THEY) who has his head in the sand if he cant' see the problems with (at the very least) conflicting statements from a country who's opinion your basing your argument on?

Quite honestly, Zero, if you can't see, much less identify the trees in the forest, the forest isn't very pertinent. Not to mention if you're busy burning the forest for fuel you might want to be able to identify the hardwood from the softwood eh?

You miss my point...I think you should BOTH stop talking about it.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Originally posted by Zero
You miss my point...I think you should BOTH stop talking about it.

I suppose you were referring to the pool. I can say the same thing.
I watched both the "genetic superior" thread and this one. This thread is by far an endless debate with no conclusion. So please people (and I mean Kat, Shadow and Shonagon since you are the main oponents here) tell me what do you understand by culture. Do you mean "lets talk about some pool until the world ends" or do you mean something like "let see what America gave to the world science, literature, ... compared to Europe"?

 

[shonagon53]

Lol, Europe gave America to the world...

 

[Shadow]

Not the Europe you live in, and not people like you. An Italian (Christopher Columbus) Sailed for Spain and discovered it and the British colonized it, and the Pilgrims also came over.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Shadow
Not the Europe you live in, and not people like you.

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[Monique]

Originally posted by Shadow
Not the Europe you live in, and not people like you. An Italian (Christopher Columbus) Sailed for Spain and discovered it and the British colonized it, and the Pilgrims also came over.

Well well, what he meant is that America is mostly made up of Europeans, not necessarily which country founded it. You know btw that New York City was founded by the Dutch? The Dutch were the first to trade stocks?

 

[Shadow]

You know btw that New York City was founded by the Dutch? The Dutch were the first to trade stocks?

Yes I do, in fact, I live by one of the oldest dutch setllements. The settlement itself is gone of course, but one building is still here, it is actually still used. It's an old church that the Sutch built. And yes, I know that they were the first to trade stocks.

 

[Shadow]

By people like you I meant that they didn't found the "New World" with his attitude, and they didn't worship him. He says AMericans are Culturally inferior and acts like he is superior? Has no one noticed this? His attitude and what he says in his posts make it clear he thinks that he is superior. So that is what I meant when I said we weren't founded by people like him, and we weren't founded by people in his area/countries anyways.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Shadow
By people like you I meant that they didn't found the "New World" with his attitude, and they didn't worship him. He says AMericans are Culturally inferior and acts like he is superior? Has no one noticed this? His attitude and what he says in his posts make it clear he thinks that he is superior. So that is what I meant when I said we weren't founded by people like him, and we weren't founded by people in his area/countries anyways.

I see you as trying to say that he doesn't have a right to speak because of his opinion and national origin.

 

[GENIERE]

Shadow, I believe Shonagon feels inferior rather than superior. His (her?) distasteful bias is probably due to his country being dominated by other countries during most of its existence before it was liberated by the USA.

Zero is misinterpreting you, what's new?

I see you as trying to say that he doesn't have a right to speak because of his opinion and national origin.

 

[Zero]

*edited for being off-topic and rather rude, if I do say so myself!*

 

[Zero]

On second thought, this thread is done...someone can start a new one, and try again, if they wish.