Is Vegetarianism the Healthier and More Ethical Choice?

[kasse]

I am condisering starting to eat less red meat, because I've read that today's meat productoin (especially cattle) is not good for our planet. I've also read that eating fish and white meat (chicken) is a lot more healthy than red meat. Besides, it's an ethical plus that I will contribute less to animal suffering (I've read that fish don't feel pain like mammals do).

So, I'm actually considering to start eating only chicken and fish, and less meat in general (some meat free dinners if I figure out how to cook tasty vegetarian stuff).

I value evidence and facts, so I'm not simply going to accept arguments from vegetarianisms without being critical. And are these arguments true, for instance?
http://www.prohealthblog.com/vegetarian-lifestyle/what-to-serve-a-vegetarian-guest.html
Any trustworthy books or documents that you can recommend? I've also heard from people who are anti-vegetarianism that vegetarianism is not healthy, and that humans need a lot of food AND vegetables (and less carbo). I'm confused! Which side should i believe?

What's your reflections on this? Any vegetarians here, btw? (And what's your motivation?)

 

[rootX]

I was thinking about my diet few minutes ago which consists of only fish and chicken and coffee. I haven't touched any green vegetables or fruits for a long time. I would need to do some research about it as soon I start considering about my old age life and health :).

 

[turbo]

I hunt deer, and I am dedicated to killing them as humanely as possible. I hunt with a single-shot rifle to further enforce my father's training that you never take anything less than a clean-kill shot. I have native american blood on both sides of my family, and I will never treat animals differently based on their similarity to humans. If I cannot cleanly release and return a fish to its waters, I will kill it as quickly as possible. I hunt birds with an old (about 80+ years now) Ithaca side-by-side 16 ga that I can point and shoot a whole lot more reliably than most people can aim. In my mind a wild creature that has lived its whole life free has had a LOT better life than one raised for food, and if I can dispatch it quickly, it's far preferable to buying commercially-processed meats, etc.

 

[kasse]

I hunt deer, and I am dedicated to killing them as humanely as possible. I hunt with a single-shot rifle to further enforce my father's training that you never take anything less than a clean-kill shot.

I see far fewer problems with sustainable and humane hunting like you do, than traditional meat production like cattle farming, not to mention slaughtering according to religious books.

In my mind a wild creature that has lived its whole life free has had a LOT better life than one raised for food

In my mind too. And in the mind of the wild creature, I'm sure :)

 

[Cyrus]

I eat a moderate amount of meat because I don't like eating big portions of meat all day long. It's been a while since I've had a steak. I prefer small amounts of meat with sides like mashed potatoes, corn, green beans, etc.

But I don't do it "because I care about the planet" or any of that other mumbo jumbo.

I don't get being a vegetarian and think anyone that does it is nuts. I remember a while ago arguing with some loon vegitarian. He was talking about how if he were alone in the woods he wouldt just quietly pass away and not harm any of the lovely bambi-like animals and become food for them. KOOOOCOOOO.

 

[Gokul43201]

I've also read that eating fish and white meat (chicken) is a lot more healthy than red meat. Besides, it's an ethical plus that I will contribute less to animal suffering (I've read that fish don't feel pain like mammals do).

Have you read and considered this though (quoting a wiki out of laziness):

In an industrial egg-producing facility, about half of the newly hatched chicks will be male and would grow up to be roosters, which do not lay eggs and therefore there is no incentive for the breeder to keep alive. Most of the male chicks are usually killed shortly after hatching.

Does/did that knowledge affect your choices?

 

[mgb_phys]

I am condisering starting to eat less red meat, because I've read that today's meat productoin (especially cattle) is not good for our planet. I've also read that eating fish and white meat (chicken) is a lot more healthy than red meat. Besides, it's an ethical plus that I will contribute less to animal suffering

Depends where you live of course, but cattle or sheep in say, the Yorkshire Dales are probably treated better than factory chickens.

Eating less meat is probably a healthy choice if you have a typical western diet but don't assume that factory chickens, farmed salmon and deep sea trawlers are good the environment.

 

[siddharth]

I don't get being a vegitarian and think anyone that does it is nuts.

Really? Why?

 

[rootX]

Really? Why?

1) Health comes before these ethics
2) Religion could be one of the reasons. Otherwise advocating for things that have no effect on our and our environment sustainability is nonsense IMO.

 

[Cyrus]

Really? Why?

The only type of vegetarian I can respect is simply because they don't like the taste of meat. Why shouldn't you eat meat?

There is also the religious argument, as rooX said, but those fall into the nuts category by default anyways.

 

[kasse]

I don't do it "because I care about the planet" or any of that other mumbo jumbo.

Maybe you're right, and I will consider eating more meat again if people start bashing me for being hysterical. After all, I don't have any children, so why should I care about the future of the planet?

 

[Cyrus]

Maybe you're right, and I will consider eating more meat again if people start bashing me for being hysterical. After all, I don't have any children, so why should I care about the future of the planet?

Sorry, fearmongering doesn't work on me.

 

[kasse]

Have you read and considered this though (quoting a wiki out of laziness):Does/did that knowledge affect your choices?

Being killed shortly after hatching isn't the worst thing, but I guess chickens are among the animals that receive the worst treatment before being killed, so it's wrong in my eyes to contribute to this. On the other hand, white meat is more healthy than red meat, so I'd rather eat that. Question is, is it enough to eat fiish, or do I need some meat from birds or mammals as well?

 

[kasse]

Eating less meat is probably a healthy choice if you have a typical western diet but don't assume that factory chickens, farmed salmon and deep sea trawlers are good the environment.

Probably not. Maybe the best thing is if we all kill ourselves.

 

[kasse]

advocating for things that have no effect on our and our environment sustainability is nonsense IMO.

Are you saying that cattle farming has no effect on our environment sustainability?

 

[kasse]

Why shouldn't you eat meat?

http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/why.html

 

[kasse]

Sorry, fearmongering doesn't work on me.

You don't believe in global warming, right?

 

[mgb_phys]

but I guess chickens are among the animals that receive the worst treatment before being killed, so it's wrong in my eyes to contribute to this. On the other hand, white meat is more healthy than red meat,

Only in having less fat. If you are eating large amounts of high fat meat, like mince then it's probably better to eat less of it!
Lean red meat isn't much higher fat than chicken.
I don't eat cheap factory chicken because it is totally tasteless as well as cruel. I eat free range eggs but free range chicken is too pricey.

Question is, is it enough to eat fiish, or do I need some meat from birds or mammals as well?

You don't NEED meat of any sort, although if you don't eat any meat at all you have to be a little more careful in what other stuff you eat to make sure you get enough iron and some vitamins. Most vegetarians are into food and are careful about what they eat.

Not eating meat because you think it's cruel is perfectly OK. But then I would avoid cheap factory chicken!
Although you not eating beef isn't going to stop anyone cutting own the rain forest if you feel you are making a difference fine.

As I said, if you have a typical meat+fast food western diet then you could probably stand to eat less meat (and less fat and less HFCS) from a health point of view.
Especially if you cook for yourself most veggie food is a lot tastier and more interesting than a burger!

 

[kasse]

you not eating beef isn't going to stop anyone cutting own the rain forest if you feel you are making a difference fine.

If that's an argument, I shouldn't bother to vote in the election either, right?

 

[Cyrus]

http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/why.html

Improves sex life wasnt on the list of wishful thinking, so I'll have to pass.

Sorry, most of those reasons seem like utter crap. (pun alert!)

Animals die every year for consumption: the horror! I want to eat live animals.

 

[Cyrus]

You don't believe in global warming, right?

Why would you say that, kasse? You shouldn't go around assuming things.

 

[kasse]

Seeming like and being are two different things. My brother says it's true, my friend says it's BS, so I don't know what to say. My friend says she's going to eat 3 cows for every cow I don't eat, though, so maybe I'm wrong to stop eating meat anyway...

 

[rootX]

Are you saying that cattle farming has no effect on our environment sustainability?

From your link:

Save the Earth

Eating vegetarian saves more land, energy, and water than any other choice you can make. That's because livestock eat several times more grain than they produce as meat. So raising livestock uses:

* several times as much land to grow the grain to feed them
* several times as much energy to harvest the grain and transport it
* several times as much water to grow the grain and to water the animals
* several times as much pesticides, etc.

I don't see where's the sustainability issues. All I get from that information is that costs of maintaining livestock are higher and so should the prices (or vegetarian food is cheap). It doesn't say anything else.

 

[kasse]

OK, then I surrender.

Why do so many people hate vegetarians?

 

[Cyrus]

OK, then I surrender.

Why do so many people hate vegetarians?

Because they do it for irrational reasons and think they are morally better.

 

[kasse]

Everybody is more or less irrational. Everybody things their morals are the best. But is that a reason to hate someone?

Eating in a meat-free restaurant the other day made me realize why I hate vegetarians. The food, unlike the tasteless, bland rubbish often served up in such places, was delicious. Unusually for meatless cuisine, it had flavour and texture, and had even been seasoned. What was unpalatable were the customers and waiting staff, all of whom seemed to believe that what they were eating made them superior. They all looked smug and self-satisfied. It brought it home to me that most vegetarians - and I am largely excluding those who eschew meat for religious and cultural reasons - give themselves a bad name. They are better than you, don't you know? The atmosphere in the restaurant was one of pompous aloofness. I left with indigestion.

People often assume I don't eat meat, because I am a feminist and vaguely of the left. I have turned up at dinner parties to find the host has assumed that at least one guest would be vegetarian, and served undercooked baked potatoes. What an atrocity! Why can they not put a chicken in the oven at the same time? Or is the sight of meat so offensive to veggies that they would pass out at the table?

Recent converts can be the worst. I have lost friends to the cult who, once they get fed the mantra from the militants, become something akin to ex-smokers. I am tired of feeling self-conscious in restaurants when ordering meat in front of them. No one should deny that factory-farmed animals are kept in the most appalling conditions, and that eating too much meat is bad for you. But look at their claims. Crusaders promote vegetarianism not only as healthy but as a solution to world hunger and a safeguard of the planet.

Do not assume living without animal products is always a positive, healthy choice. A vegan couple in American have recently been charged with child abuse for malnourishing their three small children. They had been brought up on a vegan diet from birth. There have been similar cases where children, who cannot choose what they eat, have had their health severely damaged because of their parents' principles. They are putting the welfare of animals before that of their children. Giving up meat and dairy has been linked to anorexia and other eating disorders in teenage girls. Lack of vitamin B12, found mainly in meats, eggs, dairy and fish, can cause brain damage. Most vegans, and some non-meat-eaters, have to supplement their diet with pills. In the developed world, vegetarianism is a privileged choice. How many working-class vegetarians do you know? It is not an option for most poor people in this country.

A veggie colleague once said of a woman with her three young children in a supermarket, "Have you seen those cheap beefburgers and pies she's feeding them? Why does she not go to the market, buy some fresh vegetables and make them all some nice, healthy soup?" Again that assumption that vegetarian and vegan foods are cheaper, which they are not, and that the mother had all the time in the world to prepare food from scratch.

Let's get our priorities right. People who put foxes and lambs before people do not have my vote. Animal liberationists blowing up scientists for conducting experiments that might lead to a cure for cancer are odious. There are more refuge spaces for cats than there are for women and their children fleeing domestic violence. While rape crisis centres are closing due to lack of funds, animal charities are raking it in.

Although vegetarianism is often seen as a "women's issue", there is a nasty, misogynistic wing that relies on sexist images and messages to convince people that meat is murder. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (Peta) are the worst offenders. One of their early adverts features a woman dragging a fur coat behind her. She is captioned as a "dumb animal". Another has a woman having her fur coat ripped off in the street and clubbed to death by a man, to make the point that it is not nice to be killed for your coat. The actor who played Lolita in the 1997 remake became "the youngest star to pose naked for Peta's anti-fur campaign". The message is: treat women, not animals, like meat.

Those who think we should not eat meat because all life is sacred are naive. Would they be happy allowing mosquitoes to spread malaria, or having rats run loose in their home? Not all creatures are equal. There are natural hierarchies in the food chain.

People should be allowed to make their own choices and not be bullied or frightened into giving up meat. In the US recently, children in a secondary school were taken by their teachers to a slaughterhouse to show them how animals are killed for food. This tactic is a form of mind control, as unethical as discouraging young girls from having sex by making them watch a difficult childbirth.

I may hate vegetarians because they make me feel guilty, or because, meat being so delicious, they must have lots of willpower. But as an animal lover who agrees in principle with most reasons for giving up meat, I would rather not join that band of humourless, judgmental souls. It would seem that you are indeed what you eat.

· Julie Bindel is the founder of Justice for Women

 

[Cyrus]

Can you summarize? Thats too long, I'm not reading all that.

 

[kasse]

Vegetarians are smug bastards who think they are superior.

My personal opinion is that meat eaters who HATE vegetarians obviously have very little going in their lives and very little to say. It is a stupid argument. Vegetarians don't stop eating meat to feel superior, they do it because we don't support the inhumane treatment of animals. If you have problems with that, get a life!

 

[signerror]

Can you summarize? Thats too long, I'm not reading all that.

Here's a digest.

30301b845249470580a9a233421881ab

 

[berkeman]

Crap. What a bunch of babies. Thread locked temporarily, pending review.

 

[berkeman]

Crap. What a bunch of babies. Thread locked temporarily (based on post reports), pending review.

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