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Infraction on 2nd post [WARNING TEMPLATE CHANGED]

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Klaas van Aarsen

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Mar 5, 2012
8,776
I got a 0-point infraction warning on my 2nd post on this forum for posting in the wrong sub forum.
Somehow that doesn't make me feel very welcome. :(

(I posted a problem from a 1st year algebra course in abstract algebra instead of in number theory.)
 

dwsmith

Well-known member
Feb 1, 2012
1,673
Re: Infraction on 2nd post

I got a 0-point infraction warning on my 2nd post on this forum for posting in the wrong sub forum.
Somehow that doesn't make me feel very welcome. :(

(I posted a problem from a 1st year algebra course in abstract algebra instead of in number theory.)
I have problems that come from a graduate Complex Analysis book, but depending on the level of the question I may post it on Calculus or Pre-Calculus. For instance, if I forgot how to find the roots, I wold post that in pre-Calc.

You have to understand the topic of your question.
 

Ackbach

Indicium Physicus
Staff member
Jan 26, 2012
4,191
Re: Infraction on 2nd post

To re-iterate dwsmith's post: a post's correct location on this forum depends on the content of the question, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the course in which the question came up.

The reason we insist on the rules on this forum is because it makes the forum much more usable to users such as yourself. A warning is a very light slap on the wrist. Think of it as a wake-up call.
 
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Klaas van Aarsen

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Mar 5, 2012
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Re: Infraction on 2nd post

To re-iterate dwsmith's post: a post's correct location on this forum depends on the content of the question, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the course in which the question came up.

The reason we insist on the rules on this forum is because it makes the forum much more usable to users such as yourself. A warning is a very light slap on the wrist. Think of it as a wake-up call.
Being an MHB Administrator this may come to you as a surprise.

But giving a *WARNING* has consequences.
It shows very strongly (to me and probably any visitor) that my (or their) behavior is unacceptable and that I should modify my behavior or else should stay away.
I'm wondering if that is the message you want to give.
 

Ackbach

Indicium Physicus
Staff member
Jan 26, 2012
4,191
Re: Infraction on 2nd post

Being an MHB Administrator this may come to you as a surprise.

But giving a *WARNING* has consequences.
It shows very strongly (to me and probably any visitor) that my (or their) behavior is unacceptable and that I should modify my behavior or else should stay away.
I'm wondering if that is the message you want to give.
I wonder if you're thinking that a warning or infraction is more public than it really is. MHB Helpers, MHB Moderators, and MHB Administrators are privy to the details of warnings and infractions. Only MHB Moderators and MHB Administrators can actually give warnings or infractions. Visitors see none of it, and neither do other regular users.

From the perspective of staff, warnings and infractions are somewhat routine, most of the time. I seriously doubt any staff member looks at the warning you received and starts thinking, "What a terrible person to have on our forum." The staff knows the difference between someone who is deliberately flouting the rules, and someone who makes an occasional mistake. You are in the latter category, if for no other reason than a warning means at least something to you. For those folks who are flouting the rules, warnings and infractions tend to make no difference. From my perspective, if I warn someone, I'm thinking this person is generally trying to follow the rules, but needs a little more direction. If I infract someone with points, that's a bit more serious. I'll usually warn before infracting unless the rule-breaking is particularly egregious.

Some ancient wisdom I've found useful: "Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you." It follows from this, via the contrapositive, that if you rebuke a man, and he does not love you, then he is not wise.

Regards.
 
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Klaas van Aarsen

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Mar 5, 2012
8,776
Re: Infraction on 2nd post

I wonder if you're thinking that a warning or infraction is more public than it really is. MHB Helpers, MHB Moderators, and MHB Administrators are privy to the details of warnings and infractions. Only MHB Moderators and MHB Administrators can actually give warnings or infractions. Visitors see none of it, and neither do other regular users.

From the perspective of staff, warnings and infractions are somewhat routine, most of the time. I seriously doubt any staff member looks at the warning you received and starts thinking, "What a terrible person to have on our forum." The staff knows the difference between someone who is deliberately flouting the rules, and someone who makes an occasional mistake. You are in the latter category, if for no other reason than a warning means at least something to you. For those folks who are flouting the rules, warnings and infractions tend to make no difference. From my perspective, if I warn someone, I'm thinking this person is generally trying to follow the rules, but needs a little more direction. If I infract someone with points, that's a bit more serious. I'll usually warn before infracting unless the rule-breaking is particularly egregious.

Some ancient wisdom I've found useful: "Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you." It follows from this, via the contrapositive, that if you rebuke a man, and he does not love you, then he is not wise.

Regards.
I consider receiving a *WARNING* as being a last resort, when someone just won't listen.
In all other cases a friendly PM suggesting improvement suffices.

Really, I can't consider even a 0-point infraction to be friendly. (Do you?)

Is that supposed to be forum policy?

I'd be more tolerable if this were my zillionth post, but it isn't.
 

Jameson

Administrator
Staff member
Jan 26, 2012
4,041
Re: Infraction on 2nd post

Hello ILikeSerena,

I wanted to weigh in on a couple of things.

1) I believe I understand what you are talking about. You make a thread asking for help and log off. When you log back in, instead of seeing a useful reply you have a PM saying "Warning!" and that makes you feel attacked. It's a normal response and I would probably feel the same way in your position. That said, the moderating style that we have is very effective and will result in the forum being easier to navigate and having higher quality posts overall than a less strictly moderated forum (many of the other forums that have been mentioned for example).

2) We don't want you to leave. Believe me, CaptainBlack and Mr Fantastic have no problem banning anyone if they cross the line.

I consider receiving a *WARNING* as being a last resort, when someone just won't listen.
We definitely will not wait that long. If someone is refusing to follow the rules and is just "not listening" he or she will most likely be banned.

We want you to stay here. We really do. I saw you register in March and have been waiting for you to post. When you did it was great to see.

3) How do you think MHF got to be so big? Yes, I was an admin there for quite some time but it wasn't due to me really. It was the Moderators, Helpers, Experts and other regular members who came around daily, helped out time and time again and respected the rules. Many of those members are over here now and a good deal of them working mostly or exclusively here. The moderators were constantly called horrible things, you should have seen some of the things we all read. Their job is to be impartial, fair and to maintain the highest quality site. Your warning was nothing personal to you and if in the future you are unsure where to post a thread you can always make it then report the post and ask one of the staff to double check.

I appreciate your feedback and hope you see where we're coming from.

Best,
Jameson
 
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Klaas van Aarsen

MHB Seeker
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Mar 5, 2012
8,776
Re: Infraction on 2nd post

Hello ILikeSerena,

I wanted to weigh in on a couple of things.

1) I believe I understand what you are talking about. You make a thread asking for help and log off. When you log back in, instead of seeing a useful reply you have a PM saying "Warning!" and that makes you feel attacked. It's a normal response and I would probably feel the same way in your position. That said, the moderating style that we have is very effective and will result in the forum being easier to navigate and having higher quality posts overall than a less strictly moderated forum (many of the other forums that have been mentioned for example).

2) We don't want you to leave. Believe me, CaptainBlack and Mr Fantastic have no problem banning anyone if they cross the line.



We definitely will not wait that long. If someone is refusing to follow the rules and is just "not listening" he or she will most likely be banned.

We want you to stay here. We really do. I saw you register in March and have been waiting for you to post. When you did it was great to see.

3) How do you think MHF got to be so big? Yes, I was an admin there for quite some time but it wasn't due to me really. It was the Moderators, Helpers, Experts and other regular members who came around daily, helped out time and time again and respected the rules. Many of those members are over here now and a good deal of them working mostly or exclusively here. The moderators were constantly called horrible things, you should have seen some of the things we all read. Their job is to be impartial, fair and to maintain the highest quality site. Your warning was nothing personal to you and if in the future you are unsure where to post a thread you can always make it then report the post and ask one of the staff to double check.

I appreciate your feedback and hope you see where we're coming from.

Best,
Jameson
Yes.
I don't usually ask for help - I give help - but in this instance I did.
And instead of help I got an infraction.

Thank you for your feedback.
I just hope you see where I'm coming from, and that it's not right to simply send infractions when friendly PM's would be better (and just answers would even be better).
 

Mr Fantastic

Member
Jan 26, 2012
66
Re: Infraction on 2nd post

Yes.
I don't usually ask for help - I give help - but in this instance I did.
And instead of help I got an infraction.

Thank you for your feedback.
I just hope you see where I'm coming from, and that it's not right to simply send infractions when friendly PM's would be better (and just answers would even be better).
1. Moderation is a time consuming process. It is faster and more efficient to give a Warning than to send a pm.

2. A Warning is a simple light slap on the wrist. Infractions are more serious, temporary bannings much more serious and permanent bannings are the final sanction. And to correct an error/misconception appearing in several of your posts in this thread, you got a Warning NOT an Infraction. So you have not been dealt with nearly as harshly as the impression your replies give.

3. Penalties cannot be seen by other members, only by Moderators, Administrators and the member who gets the penalty.

4. It is important that there is an administrative record of penalties. If a pm was sent then there is no record and the same member could commit the same rule violation several times (simply by not bothering to take care) and be treated the same as someone who only did it once, simply because no one would know because there would be no record to show otherwise. It is important that it is known when a member is repeatedly making the same mistake.

5. Sooner rather than later you would have got help. However, if your question is on the wrong board, then it might take a while to get help because someone who could have helped you might not look at questions posted on that board .....

I have added my two cents to this thread because now there is a public discussion at *this* site on Warnings and why they are given.
 
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Jameson

Administrator
Staff member
Jan 26, 2012
4,041
Re: Infraction on 2nd post

Although I stand by the previous staff statements made by myself and others, the new warning message template has been edited to not seem as abrasive to some users as it is really intended. I don't think the OP will be around anymore but for anyone else reading I just want to note that we don't want to offend any member who is trying to be a part of our community. Below you may read the new warning template.

Dear {username},

This is a friendly reminder that we have very strict rules on this forum to ensure that posts are of the highest quality. Below you will see a rule that you have overlooked so please review it for future posts. You have not received any infraction points of any kind for this post and nothing has been changed about your account. We're just asking that you keep this rule and all of our rules in mind in the future.

Reason:
-------
{infraction reason}

{note to user}
-------

Original Post:
{link to post}

If you have any questions, please contact the Global Moderator who issued this warning first. If the issue is unresolved then an administrator will join the discussion.

All the best,
Math Help Boards | Free Math Help
 
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