How can I take the derivative?

  • A
  • Thread starter etotheipi
  • Start date
  • Tags
    Derivative
In summary, the conversation discusses the calculation of a functional variation with respect to a derivative of the field in an action considered in a globally hyperbolic spacetime. The canonical momentum conjugate to the field is defined as the partial derivative of the Lagrangian with respect to the derivative of the field, but it is unclear how to define a functional derivative with respect to the derivative of the field. This is analogous to varying the action with respect to coordinates, but it is not clear how to formalize this.
  • #1
etotheipi
The action considered is \begin{align*}
S[\Phi] = \int_M dt d^3 x \sqrt{-g} \left( -\frac{1}{2}g^{ab} \partial_a \Phi \partial_b \Phi - \frac{1}{2}m^2 \Phi^2\right)
\end{align*}I can "see" unrigorously that variation with respect to ##\partial_t \Phi(x)## it is going to be\begin{align*}
\frac{\delta S}{\delta(\partial_t \Phi(x))} &= -\frac{1}{2}\sqrt{-g} g^{ab} \frac{\delta}{\delta(\partial_t \Phi(x))} \left( \partial_a \Phi \partial_b \Phi \right) \\

&= -\frac{1}{2}\sqrt{-g} g^{ab} \cdot 2 \partial_a \Phi \delta^t_b \\

&= -\sqrt{-g} g^{at} \partial_a \Phi \\

&= \sqrt{h} n^{a} \partial_a \Phi
\end{align*}How do I do this calculation properly? For instance to find the functional variation with respect to ##\Phi## I could consider ##\lim_{\epsilon \rightarrow 0} \frac{1}{\epsilon}\left( S[\Phi + \epsilon \alpha] - S[\Phi] \right)##. But how do I write it when considering the functional derivative of ##S## with respect to ##\partial_t \Phi##; do I let the action have a second argument ##S = S[\Phi, \partial_a \Phi]## and proceed from there?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #2
Why do you need such a strange derivative? I don't really see how such a derivative would be defined, maybe if you give me some more context I can help
 
  • Like
Likes etotheipi
  • #3
##(M, g_{ab})## is a globally hyperbolic spacetime and the metric is here written ##ds^2 = -N^2 dt^2 + h_{ij} (dx^i + N^i dt)(dx^j + N^j dt)## with ##t## a global time coordinate labelling the cauchy surfaces ##\Sigma_t## of normal ##-N(dt)_a## and induced metric ##h_{ab}##, such that ##\sqrt{-g} = N\sqrt{h}##.

The aim is to find the canonical momentum ##\Pi(x)## conjugate to ##\Phi## by varying ##S## with respect to ##\partial_t \Phi(x)##
 
  • #4
Ok, usually when one has an action of the form
$$S = \int \mathscr{L}(\Phi, \partial_\mu \Phi, t) d^4 x$$
the canonical momentum is defined as
$$\Pi(x)=\frac{\partial \mathscr{L}(\Phi, \partial_\mu \Phi, t)}{\partial(\partial_0\Phi)}$$
This one is almost immediate to compute and indeed gives the answer you have in #1. But, otherwise, I don't know how one is supposed to define something like
$$\frac{\delta S[\Phi]}{\delta (\partial_0 \Phi)}$$
At first, something like that seems nonsensical to me, but maybe there's a way to properly define such a thing...
 
  • Like
Likes vanhees71 and etotheipi
  • #5
Yeah, it's a bit strange. Landau & Lifshitz explained similar sorts of things, e.g. varying the action with respect to the co-ordinates (i.e. considering only admissible trajectories between ##a \longrightarrow b## and keeping ##(\delta x^i)_a = 0## but ##(\delta x^i)_b## variable) then you can show that$$\delta S = -mcu_i \delta x^i \implies p_i = - \frac{\partial S}{\partial x^i}$$so the time-component of the momentum four-vector would just be ##p_t = - \partial S / \partial t##.

I figured the motivation for ##\Pi(x) = \delta S / \delta (\partial_t \Phi)## in the OP would be analogous to that but I don't know how to formalise that at all. I don't know any field theory, really :frown:
 
  • #6
Indeed, now that I think about it, since functional derivatives have the chain rule, maybe we can write it like
$$\frac{\delta S[\Phi]}{\delta (\partial_0 \Phi)} = \frac{\delta S[\Phi]}{\delta \Phi}\frac{\delta \Phi}{\delta (\partial_0 \Phi)}$$
Then the first derivative is the usual one that is used to derive E-L equations, the problem is the second term.
We know that $$\frac{\delta (\partial_0 \Phi)(y)}{\delta \Phi(x)}=-\partial_0 \delta^{(4)}(x-y),$$ but I don't know if there exists a property for functional derivatives that allow us to invert this, similar to normal derivatives.
 
  • Like
Likes vanhees71 and etotheipi

Related to How can I take the derivative?

1. What is a derivative?

A derivative is a mathematical concept that represents the rate of change of a function at a specific point. It measures how much a function changes as its input variable changes.

2. Why do we need to take derivatives?

Derivatives are used to solve various problems in mathematics, physics, engineering, and other fields. They help us understand the behavior of functions and their rates of change, which is crucial in many real-world applications.

3. How do I take the derivative of a function?

The process of taking a derivative involves finding the slope of a tangent line to a function at a specific point. This can be done using various methods, such as the power rule, product rule, quotient rule, and chain rule.

4. Can I take the derivative of any function?

In most cases, yes. However, some functions may not have a derivative at certain points, such as sharp corners or discontinuities. It is important to understand the properties of a function before attempting to take its derivative.

5. What are some practical applications of derivatives?

Derivatives are used in many fields, including physics, economics, engineering, and statistics, to model and analyze various phenomena. Some common applications include finding maximum and minimum values, optimization problems, and calculating rates of change in real-world scenarios.

Similar threads

  • Special and General Relativity
Replies
4
Views
364
  • Special and General Relativity
Replies
2
Views
603
  • Special and General Relativity
Replies
11
Views
1K
  • Special and General Relativity
Replies
1
Views
142
  • Special and General Relativity
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • Special and General Relativity
Replies
9
Views
4K
  • Special and General Relativity
2
Replies
48
Views
3K
  • Special and General Relativity
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • Special and General Relativity
Replies
9
Views
741
  • Special and General Relativity
2
Replies
36
Views
3K
Back
Top