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Chronos
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No degree - and a life of temporary, low income jobs ... how is that a better option?
Chronos said:No degree - and a life of temporary, low income jobs ... how is that a better option?
Simon Bridge said:How many? Can you back these statements up with peer-reviewed research? Preferably quantitative.
This thread has passed the point where people should be backing up their statements with, you know, science... hasn't it? Any social scientists want to step in here?
Chronos said:No degree - and a life of temporary, low income jobs ... how is that a better option?
Everything in life is a risk/chance. No one should ever think education is a guarantee of success or lack of education is a guarantee of failure. But the reason for getting an education (a useful education) is it gives you the better chance of success.aquitaine said:One of the reasons why is because many people who go to college go because someone else told them to. Just get this magic piece of paper, wave it around and suddenly all your potential employment problems will somehow go away. Except that it doesn't, I've met many people who can't get jobs, not many places are hiring recent graduates. Higher education is a debt fueled bubble just waiting to burst.
This is such a common-sense life lesson it is hard for me to fathom people getting it so wrong. If my mother taught me anything, it was that there are no guarantees in life.aquitaine said:Um, for years on end everyone at my high school had it drilled into their heads by guidance counselors that college was the only way to achieve success.
I don't think I've ever encountered such density on this subject before, no.It's common knowledge that this occurs in most American suburban high schools. Are you seriously going to claim that this has had no effect on student decisions to go to college?
While I would quibble with your slicing of the data (for people entering four-year colleges, the numbers are much better), that doesn't really have anything to do with whether the degree itself has value.The dropout rate alone suggests that most people who go to college are not prepared for it.
Take 10 high school graduates who go to college. Based on the dropout rate, which is about 50% on average, only 5 of them will graduate.
The link doesn't say that. If you're going by the title, the article - oddly - doesn't explain it so it strikes me that the reporter may have misinterpreted data. But if you are talking about "underemployed" and "need more training", neither of those imply not needing a degree.Of those that do graduate, http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/30/us-usa-graduates-jobs-idUSBRE93T0WB20130430
Not getting a job in your field is not equivalent to not needing a degree. But like I said before: some degrees are worth more than others and the biggest mistake people make is getting a degree that isn't worth much and/or does not have a lot of available jobs.Because I'm generous I'm rounding that down to 40%. So of those 5 that graduated only 3 will get a job in their field.
Even setting aside that the timeframe is only two years, your criteria for "success" is flawed because it doesn't compare that case to the alternative.So, that's a success rate of 30% with the rest either being underemployed or saddled with student debt and having no degree.
What is "wageslavery"?...but even if that's not the case all you have to look forward to is a lifetime of wageslavery.
"Often"? Exactly what fraction of startups are "sold for millions of dollars"?Now let's say you found a startup and are successful, what often happens is the business is sold for millions of dollars.
"Averages"?? You mean based on the made-up comparison to startups?Therefore based on these averages it is not worth it to go to college for most people.
I'm not sure you know what the concept of a "bubble" is about, but could you please explain what you think it means in this context?Higher education is a bubble, it won't last.
Did you read what jobs qualify as STEM jobs? It is pretty broad. So I don't see how that is useful.If the USA Today is to be believed half of all STEM jobs are held by people without degrees.
Arguing with them about it isn't going to convince them to hire you.There's also more than a few cases of HR departments overemphasizing degrees.
Because it increases the odds of getting an intelligent/quality employee.Why is it suddenly necessary for an admin assistant to have a bachelor's degree?
I'm not sure how us being in engineering implies bias. That some majors lead to higher paying jobs and lower unemployment rates than others is just fact.Turion said:I agree wholeheartedly but the issue is that I'm studying engineering and you're an engineer so there might be some bias. I wonder what others on this forums think regarding this? Disclaimer: our definition of useless is something that isn't marketable or isn't economically viable.
Gawd, I hope not! The marketing major really should understand that different markets have different sizes so some things are much more marketable than others. No matter how good of a marketteer you are, you will never succeed at selling lifejackets in a desert. Do marketing majors take economics? I sure hope so.Simon Bridge said:A marketing major will likely tell you that everything is marketable, you have to find the right market, and the right marketing strategy.
For what fraction and what is the alternative? I'd wager that there are only three categories of people for whom picking a good major to get a good job is not a significant consideration and the fraction is pretty tiny:But isn't there an underlying bias here in thinking that it is a "mistake" to pick a major that is unlikely to make money ... assuming that making money is the only reason to study. The need for a good job must, surely, be a parameter in the decision making process and, for many, it will be an important one. But not for everyone.
Yes.The bottom line is that the student needs to decide, in advance, which course of study will provide what will be important to them some years in the future. This amounts to predicting socio-economic outcomes. Is that a reasonable thing to expect from someone just out of high school that failing to do so would be called a "mistake"?
turbo said:BTW, my cousin is one of the top "engineers" for a very large defense corporation. He doesn't have a degree, either, just a certificate from a two-year community college. He is also doing quite well, though he has had to adjust with getting moved all over the world to supervise defense projects. He and his wife and daughter spent over 5 years in Oz, and I loved the digital pics that they sent, especially of vacations in Tasmania.
He is two years younger than me, making him 59. Right out of CC, he got a job with a very large defense contractor, programming for an advanced radar system, and they quickly promoted him to manager. He and his young wife spent quite a few years in Oz, so he could do similar work there, and then returned to the US, getting moved around to do other defense-work, including designing electronics/sonar/radar for subs.ZombieFeynman said:When did your cousin first get this position? How long did he work in the field? How old is he?
I suspect this is an antiquated situation which is not represntative of the engineering job market today.