Addenum to AGE VS Experience debate

[Zantra]

addenum to AGE VS Experience debate or You'll understand when you're older

This was origninally a sub-topic that was started in the general forum about age, wisdom, and experience, and how they all interact. Some people had some good arguments, so I wanted to add something to it.

It's my belief that with age comes wisdom and experience, and knowledge as a by-product. However Mentat had put forth that just because someone is older, they aren't necessarily wiser. This is true. But also we must acknowledge that even if someone is very intelligent, without the knowledge and experience to guide them they are lacking.

I won't go any deeper into detail yet, but I wanted to bring up one point. It was stated that the younger peopleare tired of older people telling them what to do when they know they are smarter than they are. So the other day a thought occurred to me, and so I have an example to present, and maybe this will help shed some light.

A lot of times you'll hear adults say "you'll understand when you're older". This is a generic answer, and I used to get it all the time. And of course this pissed me off to no end, knowing it was an empty answer. Like when adults will tell you that you have a curfew. We'll use this as the example. The reason adults say this, is that it is a generic answer. Mostly because we don't want to, or think you aren't capable of understanding(which at times is true). We may give you a curfew because we don't want you running into people that would hurt you, or hanging out with the wrong people who would get you into trouble. We may think it's good discipline to be in at a certain time, and it help teaches responsibility. But rather than explain all that to you, we say "you'll understand when you're older. Sometimes you're too young to understand how complicated the world is, and sometimes we're just lazy and don't want to launch into it

So that is why "you'll understand when you get older" Being a dad myself(scary thought huh?) I know that it's sometimes difficult for kids to understand why parents torture them. But we always do things(well most parents) with your best interests at heart. And when you get older, believe me you'll thank us

 

[Kerrie]

zantra, i know where you are coming from now that i am a parent myself...today's kids do seem wiser in general, but then there are a few that allow their ego/attitude speak for their hearts...and there are many more adults that still do this as well...personally i believe both the young and older *wiser* can learn from one another, but time does have some value as long as one continues to learn lessons (time + lessons learned = experience), sort of like a good diamond needs time to get better

 

[Zantra]

Generation upon generation goes through this same thing. Our parents did, our kids are, and our great great great grandkids will too. Each generation seems to bring more awareness of the world around us, and more freedoms, not to mention newer, more radical ideas that the previous generation has to assimilate at the same time as the kids. And because the adults are exposed to certain things at the same time as kids, if not later, the kids look at it as "oh well they should know this they're the adults." And this gives them a reason to challenge us. And then eventually the kids grow up, and have kids of their own. And just as I did, they realize that things like responsibility tend to cramp the "fun time" we're used to. And sure, there are kids out there smart enough to comprehend the "why" and the details that come with being a parent, but they shouldn't. It's better to have fun and enjoy not having to worry about that stuff. It's just the process of life.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Sorta interesting to me as I have recently found one of the younger members of this forum telling me that I had "Come down to there level", which I had, in a manner, (The twittering from me, an adult, using the word "Wang'y", is proportional to the EI) as I ended up wondering if he could recognize that he could NOT come "up to mine", no matter what he does/did, cause it is simply the time at work in it all.

Not his fault, not really, 17 going on...whatever.
(his definition of a 'Foxy Lady' is my definition of Jail Bait!nogonear!)

 

[Les Sleeth]

Wisdom revisited

As you probably know Zantra, I seemd to have started that melee in the general discussion area, but not intentionally. I honestly thought it would be evidently clear that there is an inseperable link between experience and wisdom.

At one point in the discussion I tried to differentiate two types of understandings: that which comes from intellect alone, and that understanding which comes from experience. If someone reads all the principles of how to ride a bicycle, he might have the intellectual understanding, but can he go an ride a bike based on that understanding? And then after he practices, and rides for awhile, doesn't he understand something new he didn't know before he rode?

It's true that absorbing principles intellectually can be a great guide, but they are useless until put into practice. And so it seems to me that sometimes youth, particularly precocious youth and/or kids upset at not being properly respected by supervising adults, want to compete for the leadership role to escape oppression or gain self esteem. Unfortunately, being too young to understand what's shaped their contrary psychology, they may then generalize their experience with a few adults to all adults, and this is when it can become a problem.

To that complicated and subconscious psychology add the irony of someone trying to understand the significance of life experience who has little of it. The very thing they need to "get it" is lacking. There seems to be no way around this communication dilemma if the youths have lost faith in adults. The redeeming factor, and another bit of irony, is that the older people become, the more they seem to understand they don't know everything, and in that specific way older almost always means wiser.

 

[Zantra]

If kids knew everything, they could go to work while I drank beers and hung out with the guys. suddenly you'd find a bunch of kids who "didn't know as much as they though they did". Essentially what would happen psychologically is that the kids would become responsible and the adults would revert to being kids. Either way, responsibility and adulthood are intertwined, and to be an adult is to be responsible, to be responsible is to understand, and become "wise".

 

[maximus]

to repeat my position:

i believe that generally adults are more wise than children. i also believe that a child (above maybe the age of 13(ish)) can be completely capable of being wiser than adults. a definition of wisdom is use is the ability at which one can analize (spel?)oneself. it is all to common for people (of all ages) to live their whole lives and never understand theirselfs. only once you do, (truely do, which is difficult, mind you) can you truly process information well enough to be able to question everything (which in my opinion is the golder rule). the more common definition of applied experience can be intergrated into this as well.

 

[Nomolesteporfavor]

I've seen a parent spit back at a child before. For the purpose of virtue, no, I don't really think adults are that great. Baby says goo goo gaa gaa I say I would like a hot dog please? Intelligence and experience are a topic when you can't keep Mr. Baby from electrocuting himself. Maturity is when parents eat taco. Children have yet to learn stupidity because I give them two thumbs up.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by maximus
to repeat my position:

i believe that generally adults are more wise than children. i also believe that a child (above maybe the age of 13(ish)) can be completely capable of being wiser than adults. a definition of wisdom is use is the ability at which one can analize (spel?)oneself. it is all to common for people (of all ages) to live their whole lives and never understand theirselfs. only once you do, (truely do, which is difficult, mind you) can you truly process information well enough to be able to question everything (which in my opinion is the golder rule). the more common definition of applied experience can be intergrated into this as well.

Of the emboldened I agree, just that it has been my experience that most adults do not reach that stage, "Knowing themselves" not even till close to their demise, and Yet by God's Grace I can recognize a point in my life, ~37* years of age, wherein I could honestly admit to Knowing the Truth about myself.

I really like what Les explained...(forgive my informality is calling you les, please...) as it is right on the mark for lots of 'stuff'.

Then again, I 'temper' myself in life (try to) as I remember what I was like at eighteen, right out of High School, knowing that I knew, and had learned, things that my parents had never even dreamed of, thought myself smarter then them, it was ONLY time (ergo "Experiance") that could cure that one.

EDIT *It might have been around 34, now that I think of it, as I have had more then one life altering event, so far...

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Nomolesteporfavor
I've seen a parent spit back at a child before. For the purpose of virtue, no, I don't really think adults are that great. Baby says goo goo gaa gaa I say I would like a hot dog please? Intelligence and experience are a topic when you can't keep Mr. Baby from electrocuting himself. Maturity is when parents eat taco. Children have yet to learn stupidity because I give them two thumbs up.

OK this was hard to sort out but I think I got it. As for an adult spitting back at a child, that's immature, disgusting, and as a parent, if I saw that I'd be appalled if I saw that(I'd probably say something too.) There are exceptions to every rule. There are a lot of good parents, and some bad parents. I don't dispute that some adults are too immature to become parents. Unfortunately there's no screening process. You just ARE a parent when you choose to be. But in general, parents are wise enough to know what's best for you. You may not agree, But adults can see things that even the most intelligent kid can't at times. As a parent, I always know more than my child. I make a point of it. If my child doesn't feel I'm wiser than them, then they don't have confidence in me. And that's just not going to work..

 

[megashawn]

Well, I'm 23, probably one of the younger adults around here.

Something my dad told me once was:

A smart person will make mistakes and learn from these lessons.

An idiot will continue to make the same mistakes.

A truly wise person will watch the smart man and the idiot, and instead of making his own mistakes, learn from the first two.

And in my life, I've had the luxury to see "how not to do things." For instance, also thanks to my dad, I know how not to raise a child.

And it is the same in everything you do. Sure age=expieriance, simply because you've had more time to practice. Even with the bike riding example, an adult could have been riding for 20 years, and a kid only 2. In that 2 years time, he may be able to watch the older adult and learn tricks from him, and actually surpass the adult skill-wise in a much shorter time then it took the adult to learn to begin with.

And of course it makes sense that each generation should have improvements over the previous. I mean, look at pro football players of today, and of 50 years ago. Simply put, there are people out there that was born to play football.

So while one must learn from the older generation, as to not stumble on the same mistakes, (s)he must also find some means of improvement over what was shown to him/her.

Kinda like "Student becomes the master" kinda thing.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by megashawn
Well, I'm 23, probably one of the younger adults around here.
Something my dad told me once was:
A smart person will make mistakes and learn from these lessons.
An idiot will continue to make the same mistakes.
A truly wise person will watch the smart man and the idiot, and instead of making his own mistakes, learn from the first two.
And in my life, I've had the luxury to see "how not to do things." For instance, also thanks to my dad, I know how not to raise a child.
And it is the same in everything you do. Sure age=expieriance, simply because you've had more time to practice. Even with the bike riding example, an adult could have been riding for 20 years, and a kid only 2. In that 2 years time, he may be able to watch the older adult and learn tricks from him, and actually surpass the adult skill-wise in a much shorter time then it took the adult to learn to begin with.
Nice thought but it doesn't always work out in practise, never mind some skills take some people years to master, no matter what!

And of course it makes sense that each generation should have improvements over the previous. I mean, look at pro football players of today, and of 50 years ago. Simply put, there are people out there that was born to play football.
Like in equipement, ergo the ability to hit harder, and take harder hits. Size changes, due to increased proteins in dietary regimes, and people who have the time now to do nothing else but focus exclusively upon the practise of their sport, YUP it's changed.
So while one must learn from the older generation, as to not stumble on the same mistakes, (s)he must also find some means of improvement over what was shown to him/her.
Kinda like "Student becomes the master" kinda thing.

Since to the best of my knowledge the "Master" is God, well, when you the student, begin to think your the God, you have become the idiot your Dad told you about, cause you still haven't even learned how to be the student yet!

Simple as that, signed; A mere student!

 

[Zantra]

I have to agree with Parsons, though only to a point. The philosophy of learning from other's mistakes is a good one, and I've applied in on several occasions myself. The trick is knowning when to use it, and when to realize that it's ineffictive in certain cases.

I think what parsons is trying to say in his own way, is that the secret which most adults learn is that you never truly become the master. You are always a student. And remember: no matter how good you THINK you are, there's always someone better. So never stop striving for improvement-If you think you're the best, you'll get cocky, and you'll take 2 steps back for every step forward.

"When you think you've learned everything, you know nothing. When you realize you know nothing, you're on the path to wisdom"

 

[Kerrie]

my mom would always tell me to learn from her mistakes, and that is a good piece of advise for some lessons, however, i believe there is value in experiencing most things for yourself...

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by maximus
to repeat my position:

i believe that generally adults are more wise than children. i also believe that a child (above maybe the age of 13(ish)) can be completely capable of being wiser than adults. a definition of wisdom is use is the ability at which one can analize (spel?)oneself. it is all to common for people (of all ages) to live their whole lives and never understand theirselfs. only once you do, (truely do, which is difficult, mind you) can you truly process information well enough to be able to question everything (which in my opinion is the golder rule). the more common definition of applied experience can be intergrated into this as well.

There will always be exceptions to EVERY rule without exception. There are also 11 year old international grandmaster chess players, and 10 year olds in college. That doesn't make it the norm.

I covered all this in the age post, but I'll summarize again. Intelligence, wisdom and experience are all intertwined, but seperate. Intelligence is how you process the information given to you, wisdom is how you apply that knowledge that you've processed, and experience is something that is earned through trial and error, which takes time. In pure theory, someone could be young and have experienced a lot more than most adults have. That neither makes them wise or intelligent. And yes, part of wisdom is understanding yourself. It's said that you can't learn to truly love someone else until you can first love yourself. But wisdom encompasses more than just that understanding.

 

[megashawn]

na, parsons just likes taking cheap shots at me.

You've still got to prove that this god exists.

Anyhow, you can master a certain trade, skill, etc, to a point where it can't get any better.


For instance, turning a dirt bike around sharp turns. You can lean it so far, and your knee hits the ground. Not far enough, and you go to slow. Once you learn the proper lean for the turn, you can apply the same concept to different turns. Once you've mastered this, you can start pre-loading the suspension to force the rear tire to drift around the corner, further improving your lap time.

I was not reffering to any supernatural beings, but more so reality, where most of us like to do our living.

Or perhaps your insights on gravity (also unproven) allow you more knowledge.

 

[Iacchus32]

What the hell do kids know? Of course when I say this I'm looking back to when I was a teenager and I didn't know Jack. And neither did anyone else I grew up with. They just "thought" they knew. How can you possibly know anything if you haven't even gotten past the age of mimicry? Or else why hang out with all your stupid friends? And so far as I can tell, the kids of today aren't altogether different, except that they might be a little more "sophisticated" in the their foolhardiness.

Wait until life has thrown you a few curves and you've had a chance to weather the elements on your own for awhile. Or even start a family and raise a few kids. Then maybe you'll begin to appreciate where the notion of wisdom and sensibility comes in.

Oh well, it looks like I'm preaching the same thing, "You'll understand when you get older."

 

[Bubonic Plague]

What the hell do kids know? Of course when I say this I'm looking back to when I was a teenager and I didn't know Jack. And neither did anyone else I grew up with. They just "thought" they knew. How can you possibly know anything if you haven't even gotten past the age of mimicry? Or else why hang out with all your stupid friends? And so far as I can tell, the kids of today aren't altogether different, except that they might be a little more "sophisticated" in the their foolhardiness.

Wait until life has thrown you a few curves and you've had a chance to weather the elements on your own for awhile. Or even start a family and raise a few kids. Then maybe you'll begin to appreciate where the notion of wisdom and sensibility comes in.

And what the hell do adults know? I know a man who tried and still tries to teach me "morals" and "values". He once even remarked, "I have too much morals." in a proud tone and goes on talking to my brother about how he must steer me from "bad" things. But he is a wife abuser, has affairs with women and loves to rake up little itsy bitsy things from the past to squabble with. Have i aroused your curiosity? Would you like to know who that man is?

He's my goddamn biological father!

What makes you think that we haven't been thrown a few curves and had to weather elements on our own?

 

[Nomolesteporfavor]

Hey, =P my father has affairs too! And both my parents are stubborn, distrustful monkeys. How can you get what is necessary for others to say you are a good person? By learning what they want. I personally don't see where the Know-it-all me comes along when my father is teaching me how to swim or play basketball. Too many parents act as if they have to know everything when they're around their children, and the children become excellent at believing polished up BS like what I'm saying. I would never tell someone that he'll understand when he's older, and apparently the only time most people would see an exception is when they realize how comprehensive the information off a google search is about sex. I've worked at McDonalds, and it's not all that horrible, and my father used to scream at me about how I'd suffer by working. Sometimes I'd forget to drain the fat and kill a few people, but this is a natural part of work for child laborers and adults. It's always the adults' fault because they tell the children to listen to them instead of themselves, rinse and repeat. Kids don't know sh*t, but adults make the kids adults who don't know sh*t by making a world of sh*t knowledge and sh*t wisdom all because we can't appear to be wrong in front of the kids.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Bubonic Plague
And what the hell do adults know? I know a man who tried and still tries to teach me "morals" and "values". He once even remarked, "I have too much morals." in a proud tone and goes on talking to my brother about how he must steer me from "bad" things. But he is a wife abuser, has affairs with women and loves to rake up little itsy bitsy things from the past to squabble with. Have i aroused your curiosity? Would you like to know who that man is?

He's my goddamn biological father!

What makes you think that we haven't been thrown a few curves and had to weather elements on our own?

Yep, I had one of those too. Except that my parents got divorced when I was very young, and I got stuck living with my mother, as well as shuffled around to different relatives at times, with my mother having one foot in and out of the looney bin all the time.

And guess what I discovered, that you become like what you hate! Indeed I had become very much like my mother, and full of anger and resentment, and despised just about everybody. While the funny thing is I never despised my father all this time? For it was all about my mother's feelings of guilt, and self-pity, and putting on a big display of helplessness in order to evoke sympathy from friends, relatives, government agencies, social workers, etc.

It was not a very healthy relationship, and by the time I got out of school I was in pretty sad shape, full of all this repressed hatred towards my mother and everyone else. Least of all was I prepared for the real world. Like I said I didn't know Jack about it. Neither did anyone else that I knew.

But you see this is how the problem manifests itself, because when you get real angry with someone, it isn't long before you start feeling guilty (with anger not being the best way to resolve problems), and if the problem doesn't go away, you begin to repress this hostility, only to find out that you have even more hostility, and you begin to repress that hostility too, until you've compounded the whole thing with inumerable hostilities repressed one on top of each other, at which point the pressure becomes so unbearable, that guess what? You begin to capitulate to the problem and begin to take on their identity. Ouch! This is the nature of how a guilt trip works -- and is also a very effective brainwashing technique. And kids will get duped almost everytime ... People can really screw with your brains by getting you to feel angry towards them.

What I would recommend to you is that you learn to give up your hatred towards your father, and try to understand that somebody (probably his father) no doubt laid a similar trip on him. And, by giving up your anger (trying to remain neutral), your problem (feelings of betrayal towards him) no longer becomes a part of his, and no longer compounds it, in which case it might give him the genuine opportunity look at it and do something about it. Whereas you, will very likely not have to suffer the same fate that he did. Hey you never know?

Indeed this is what I had to learn in order to deal with my mother. To try and understand what happened to her when she was growing up and give up my hatred towards her. And now both she I are better off in the long run for it.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Bubonic Plague
And what the hell do adults know? I know a man who tried and still tries to teach me "morals" and "values". He once even remarked, "I have too much morals." in a proud tone and goes on talking to my brother about how he must steer me from "bad" things. But he is a wife abuser, has affairs with women and loves to rake up little itsy bitsy things from the past to squabble with. Have i aroused your curiosity? Would you like to know who that man is?

He's my goddamn biological father!

What makes you think that we haven't been thrown a few curves and had to weather elements on our own?

I agree with you BP. Iacchus' tone is condescending and uncalled for. And plenty of adults this very moment are screwing up their kids heads with all varieties of trips they are laying on them. I grew up in a very abusive home, and it took me years to regain the smidgeon of sanity I now enjoy.

As an adult I've been able to observe lots of families, and there is definitely a way for adults to respect and learn from kids. Children are closest to the true nature of humans (IMO), and their openness, sincerity, enthusiasm, and joy is exactly the lessons most adults need to reacquaint themselves with. Add to that the young mind uncluttered by all the conditioning one acquires while aging, and you have the basis for love, honoring, respecting and learning from children.

But for this to work, children have to have the same feeling toward adults. This idea that those who have survived the trials of life ahead of you is not trivial. Reality kills and injures all the time, and kids usually don't even have a clue the dangers they put themselves in, or would if consciencous adults didn't intervene.

So the rule is, adults love and respect children, encourage them to develop and be themselves, allow them to participate fully in family life and society, and expect them to learn the principles of survival. And for kids the rule is, respect the leadership role of the adults, and especially don't try to assume the leadership role for things outside your personal space.

The problem being discussed here is about kids whose experience with supervising adults hasn't been very good, and so now they've generalized it to all adults and/or authority figures. Because they don't trust those with more experience in life, they might develop personal philosophies which incorporate this distrust, such as you can be "wise" if you are a kid.

While it isn't necessarily true that flying to the tropics means you are going to have a great tropical vacation, you certainly aren't going to have a great tropical vaction if you never fly there. Similarly, because (I believe) wisdom is that understanding which comes from actually doing things (not just thinking or studying about them), and in particular doing those things which further one's survival and happiness, someone who is hasn't had time to do much along those lines simply cannot be wise. Smart, yes but not wise.

But you are also right to say, older does not necessarily mean wiser. After causing myself a lot of grief by refusing to respect adults/authority, I finally decided it was best to give them the benefit of the doubt until they proved undeserving. It worked a lot better than going around with an attitude.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Nomolesteporfavor
Hey, =P my father has affairs too! And both my parents are stubborn, distrustful monkeys. How can you get what is necessary for others to say you are a good person? By learning what they want.

This is no doubt the same technique that they discovered about how to get "their way" with their parents. Sounds like a sure way of becoming a distrustful monkey to me.

I personally don't see where the Know-it-all me comes along when my father is teaching me how to swim or play basketball. Too many parents act as if they have to know everything when they're around their children, and the children become excellent at believing polished up BS like what I'm saying.

Sounds like his father wasn't of much use to him either.

I would never tell someone that he'll understand when he's older ...

Well just wait until you get older.

Kids don't know sh*t, but adults make the kids adults who don't know sh*t by making a world of sh*t knowledge and sh*t wisdom all because we can't appear to be wrong in front of the kids.

And yet why is it that kids who don't know sh*t become adults who don't know sh*t? Must have had something to do with their parents not knowing sh*t either I guess?

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by megashawn
na, parsons just likes taking cheap shots at me.
HUH??

You've still got to prove that this god exists.

Plato asked; "What is God?"
Mr. Robin Parsons (that's me!) answered; "The Truth!"

Anyhow, you can master a certain trade, skill, etc, to a point where it can't get any better. Spoken like someone who has yet to "master" anything, cause you would know what is wrong, with what you are saying, if you had!


For instance, turning a dirt bike around sharp turns. You can lean it so far, and your knee hits the ground. Not far enough, and you go to slow. Once you learn the proper lean for the turn, you can apply the same concept to different turns. Once you've mastered this, you can start pre-loading the suspension to force the rear tire to drift around the corner, further improving your lap time.
Been there?? done that?? YUP!

I was not reffering to any supernatural beings, but more so reality, where most of us like to do our living.

Or perhaps your insights on gravity (also unproven) allow you more knowledge.

Unproven only according to you, lacking in complete knowledge of it, you ascribe yourself capable of judgment of it, which would automatically mean that you sit in judgment of your own ignorance, as well, how interesting...but you miss that...

 

[Kerrie]

i think a real barrier to the communication between the young and older is when the older "wiser" folks begin throwing the self righteous tone around...sure, the adults may have had some good hard lessons that make them feel they earned their wisdom, however in my opinion, self-righteousness of these folks who suppossedly have this wisdom is one of the most basic lessons they failed to learn...

in order for the young to take us seriously, we need to attempt to reach out to them in a compassionate and non-condescending tone...i have good faith that most younger people will react positively to this...

and as far as "earning" wisdom, that is how most of us achieve it - with time and lessons learned...wisdom is also a combination of emotional growth coupled with intelligence (assuming one will use it)...

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
I agree with you BP. Iacchus' tone is condescending and uncalled for. And plenty of adults this very moment are screwing up their kids heads with all varieties of trips they are laying on them. I grew up in a very abusive home, and it took me years to regain the smidgeon of sanity I now enjoy.

Really? That's very easy for you to say. Did you bother to read my follow-up post?

As an adult I've been able to observe lots of families, and there is definitely a way for adults to respect and learn from kids. Children are closest to the true nature of humans (IMO), and their openness, sincerity, enthusiasm, and joy is exactly the lessons most adults need to reacquaint themselves with. Add to that the young mind uncluttered by all the conditioning one acquires while aging, and you have the basis for love, honoring, respecting and learning from children.

And at what point? When they become teenagers? I don't hardly think so! This is when hormones begin to kick in, and the last thing you can expect from a teenager is to be "reasonable."

But for this to work, children have to have the same feeling toward adults. This idea that those who have survived the trials of life ahead of you is not trivial. Reality kills and injures all the time, and kids usually don't even have a clue the dangers they put themselves in, or would if consciencous adults didn't intervene.

And yet by the time we become teenagers the adults "are" the enemy.

So the rule is, adults love and respect children, encourage them to develop and be themselves, allow them to participate fully in family life and society, and expect them to learn the principles of survival. And for kids the rule is, respect the leadership role of the adults, and especially don't try to assume the leadership role for things outside your personal space.

Even so I recall very little of this when I was growing up. And with all the problems my mother had, I was just there, like some "overlooked fixture" in the background.

The problem being discussed here is about kids whose experience with supervising adults hasn't been very good, and so now they've generalized it to all adults and/or authority figures. Because they don't trust those with more experience in life, they might develop personal philosophies which incorporate this distrust, such as you can be "wise" if you are a kid.

And basically what we wind-up doing is repeating the same mistakes that our parents made.

While it isn't necessarily true that flying to the tropics means you are going to have a great tropical vacation, you certainly aren't going to have a great tropical vaction if you never fly there. Similarly, because (I believe) wisdom is that understanding which comes from actually doing things (not just thinking or studying about them), and in particular doing those things which further one's survival and happiness, someone who is hasn't had time to do much along those lines simply cannot be wise. Smart, yes but not wise.

Weasels are smart, meaning kids are just like weasels or, as mentioned before, "distrustful monkeys."

But you are also right to say, older does not necessarily mean wiser. After causing myself a lot of grief by refusing to respect adults/authority, I finally decided it was best to give them the benefit of the doubt until they proved undeserving. It worked a lot better than going around with an attitude.

Yes, I can agree with that there.

 

[Zantra]

Lot of pent up hostility towards adults here, and I feel that there is an issue with bad parental figures and the influence it has on the opinions of adults overall. These examples are of bad adults, but for each of those I could give you 10 examples of outstanding parents who do extremely well at parenting. The thing is you can't say that just because one adult is irresponsible that all adults are- take it from one who knows what having a bad parent is like. And there is something to be said for going through life's experiences. We as adullts don't know it all, but usually we know more about life in general than the child. We say things like "you'll understand when you're older because usually, after going through a few obstacles and curveballs, you do better understand. Also, we care for you cloth you, feed you- all these things take money and effort-which you are incapable- as much as you'd like to believe the contrary-of doing on your own.

EDIT: And like the saying goes "teenagers, quick, move out now while you still know everything!"

In order to equal the experience of adult you have to first move out, get a job,show up at that job every day, on time, and rarely call off sick, because if you do, you will loose that job and the ability to pay for your rent, food, gas, car, and all other bills. Pay your bills on time to maintain good credit, do your own laundry, cooking, cleaning (you can't be a slob or no one will want to come visit you). I won't even mention taking care of children-that's whole other story. Oh, and I almost forgot- in order to get that job, you have to have a college education-otherwise you'll be eating ramon noodles and working at mcdonalds. But hey, since you know everything, you should be able to wiz through it in a few weeks.

If anyone under 18 can honestly say they've done all this, then I will bow to their superiority, and acknowledge that they could be wiser than me. Otherwise, you're just going to have to wait in line like the rest of us had to!

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Thank you Zantra!

I had good parents, four of them! (actually)

 

[radagast]

To me, Wisdom is developed via experience from a base of knowledge and intelligence.

I may have the knowledge and intelligence to not smoke, just because my friends do, or not to cheat on my wife even though my genitalia is yelling to go for it, or to avoid taking a chance on the freeway even though I'm about to miss my exit, but without the experience to show me [emotionally] that the correct decisions are really in my best interest, they will unlikely stop me from making the bad decisions. Wisdom is that which allows us to override our short term impulse, thus making a good decision (one based on what our intelligence and knowledge tell us is correct).

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Peraps a feature missing from the discussion is the idea of EI (Emotional Intelligence) as that plays roles in our lives, is seldom (to my knowledge) discussed and is sort of pivotal in the dual roles of age and gender.

I find the women develop emotionally, faster then men, but men will go farther, if they stick with it, in a longer run. EI, and maturity, are evidentual in the "Personality Portrait" that is discourse, "When I talk to you, I walk you down the corridors of my mind!"

Emotive maturity comes from life experience, and that only comes from time, and trying.

 

[Nomolesteporfavor]

Darn it, I need to start using paragraphs or something. What I meant, on the third and fourth sentence, is that you aren't necessarily a good adult or child just because others say so, it is their judgment, and how did they learn what's good and bad? Sure, some say if you cheat on your spouse you're supposed to get killed, but it's most about respecting what society has already instilled. If it's not as simple as "If you want to kill me, I better stop you if I want to live" then it's probably common courtesy. Have a lot of mates because you're very handsome or beautiful and they want your genes? Polygamy, bad, bad, bad.

Yes, my father was not of much use to me, Iacchus32! Are you saying if I acted Know-it-all then my father would've been of use to me?

When am I supposed to say, When you grow up you will understand? Like how you must have a clean room or hell will freeze over?

Yes, it is all the parents' fault, and they teach children to be stubborn. How do you get a kid to eat broccolli?

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by radagast
To me, Wisdom is developed via experience from a base of knowledge and intelligence.

Wisdom is that which allows us to override our short term impulse, thus making a good decision (one based on what our intelligence and knowledge tell us is correct).

Those impulses are based from emotions...the power to recognize them for what they are coupled with knowledge/intelligence (they can be almost one in the same) is ultimately what wisdom equates to...

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Nomolesteporfavor

When am I supposed to say, When you grow up you will understand? Like how you must have a clean room or hell will freeze over?

Yes, it is all the parents' fault, and they teach children to be stubborn. How do you get a kid to eat broccolli?

When to use it is a good question. In theory, it really shouldn't be used at all because eventually it looses it's impact and kids will dismiss it as a meaningless phrase(until they get older and finally get it)I use it sparingly, and only in very difficult circumtances like romance, or somethng adult-oriented that I don't feel she's ready to learn yet. I use it as a protection mechanism for her(it's just convienient that it also happens to benefit me as well most times).

As for how to get kids to eat broccoli- two choices- cheese broccoli-mmmm yummy or using dessert as an incentive. Don't bother with the starving kids in china crap- that never worked on me, and I just replied "well send it to them then", and promptly sat at the table for 5 hours-never did eat it.

 

[Bubonic Plague]

Too many parents act as if they have to know everything when they're around their children, and the children become excellent at believing polished up BS like what I'm saying.

I only act like I'm believing just to shut him up. He gave me some whacked out explanation for how the atomic bomb works. Something about it lacking electrons, so when it falls, it blows up and starts to suck up electrons from all over the place, thus killing everyone and destroying everything. The irony is that he did very well for physics when he was young, or at least that is what my mom tells me.

What I would recommend to you is that you learn to give up your hatred towards your father, and try to understand that somebody (probably his father) no doubt laid a similar trip on him. And, by giving up your anger (trying to remain neutral), your problem (feelings of betrayal towards him) no longer becomes a part of his, and no longer compounds it, in which case it might give him the genuine opportunity look at it and do something about it. Whereas you, will very likely not have to suffer the same fate that he did.

After causing myself a lot of grief by refusing to respect adults/authority, I finally decided it was best to give them the benefit of the doubt until they proved undeserving. It worked a lot better than going around with an attitude.

I'll keep that in mind, but don't expect me to start flashing million-dollar smiles at adults.

i have good faith that most younger people will react positively to this...

Somehow this seems like it is directed at me.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Nomolesteporfavor
Yes, my father was not of much use to me, Iacchus32! Are you saying if I acted Know-it-all then my father would've been of use to me?

No, but it sounded like that's what he was "accusing" you of doing. Or, were you just speaking of his attitude specifically?

 

[Zantra]

Let me tell you- and this is something you don't realize until you're a parent. Your children look up to you. They look to you for everything, and particularly knowledge. In essence, you are their heros- especially at a young age. So sometimes a parent, in an effort to prolong and maintain that "hero" status, will do stuff like bs, or gloss over something they know nothing about.

And to be blunt, if the best example of your dad being a bad parent is him "bsing" some things to you, then you should sit and start weighing the pros against the cons. Look at it this way- at least he took the trouble to actually try and explain something to you- which is more than my father ever did for me.

But I can see this is turning into a parenting therapy session...