Error of Descartes: Space w/out Matter - Arguments & Concept

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In summary, Descartes believed that space without matter did not exist. He based this assumption on the mechanistic concept that was standard at the time. Maxwell sided with Mr. Newton, believing that space and time are relational, existing only as concepts--modes of existence of moving matter.
  • #1
StephenPrivitera
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Descartes believed that space without matter did not exist. "If that which is in a hollow vessel were taken out of it without anything entering to fill its place, the sides of the vessel, having nothing between them, would be in contact."
"The nature of matter . . . does not consist in a thing being hard, or heavy, or coloured, but only in its being extended in length, breadth and depth."
What arguments do we use today to show that this concept is wrong? What is space without matter? What is the commonly accepted concept of matter?
 
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I think Descartes is right. Space without matter and time without motion are empty concepts. Today, our best theory of spacetime is GR, in which the geometry of spacetime is completely determined by the distrubution of matter (by that I mean all energy-momentum density) in the universe.

No matter in motion-->No spacetime.
 
  • #3
That's unexpected, I suppose. The question came from Maxwell's Matter and Motion (which is a very good book by the way), Article 16. Maxwell makes it very clear that he finds Descartes' assumption to be false. Thus, he titles the Article "Error of Descartes." I gave my confidence to Maxwell, since he was a more modern thinker. He was before Einstein, however, so it shouldn't surprise me that some of his ideas are wrong.
 
  • #4
Originally posted by StephenPrivitera
I gave my confidence to Maxwell, since he was a more modern thinker. He was before Einstein, however, so it shouldn't surprise me that some of his ideas are wrong.

I wouldn't say "wrong", as this is a philosophical (as opposed to scientific) question. In other words, it can't be settled experimentally.

One view of space is that of Newton, who held that space and time are absolute, independent of moving bodies. The other is that of Leibniz, who held that space and time are relational, existing only as concepts--modes of existence of moving matter.

It seems that Maxwell has chosen to side with Mr. Newton. The conceptual problem I have with the absolute picture of space arises when putting it to the extreme test: trying to imagine space with no matter in it. What does "1 meter of space" look like? How can you even tell? In your mind's eye, you might try to envision a meter stick imposed on the blackness to measure space, but introducing a meter stick is not allowed, because that is a material body! The same goes for time: How would I measure time with just empty space and no motion? Answer: I can't. Thus, I agree with the relationalists that space and time are meaningless outside the context of moving matter.
 
  • #5
Originally posted by StephenPrivitera
"If that which is in a hollow vessel were taken out of it

I think this can't be done. Because the walls of the vessel must consist of physical objects, and these will interact with each other.

I think Descartes made this assumption because of the mechanistic concept that was standard those days.
 
  • #6
There is a difference between empty space and nothingness. Empty space has physical properties (e.g. vacuum energy, permitivitty, etc). Nothingness does not.

In my opinion there were only two decent philosophers from the modern genre... Descartes and Kant.

eNtRopY
 

1. What is the "Error of Descartes"?

The "Error of Descartes" refers to the philosophical concept proposed by French philosopher René Descartes in the 17th century. Descartes argued that there is a fundamental separation between mind and matter, and that matter can exist without taking up space. This concept has been heavily debated and criticized by philosophers and scientists alike.

2. How does Descartes argue for the existence of space without matter?

Descartes argued that space is a mathematical concept, and therefore does not require physical matter to exist. He believed that space was infinite and continuous, and that it could exist independently of any physical objects or matter.

3. What are the main criticisms of Descartes' concept of space without matter?

One of the main criticisms of Descartes' concept is that it goes against our everyday experience of the world, where space and matter are intimately connected. It also raises questions about how matter can move and interact without being located in space. Additionally, some argue that Descartes' concept is based on flawed assumptions and does not align with empirical evidence.

4. How does modern science view Descartes' concept of space without matter?

Modern science generally rejects Descartes' concept of space without matter, as it contradicts our understanding of the physical world. Physics, in particular, has shown that matter and space are intimately connected, and that matter cannot exist without taking up space. However, some aspects of Descartes' ideas, such as the concept of infinite space, have influenced modern scientific thinking.

5. What are some alternative explanations for the nature of space?

Some alternative explanations for the nature of space include the theories of relativity proposed by Albert Einstein, which view space as a dynamic and interconnected fabric. Quantum mechanics also has its own understanding of space, where it is seen as a probabilistic field. Other theories, such as string theory, propose that space is made up of tiny, vibrating strings. Ultimately, the nature of space is still a subject of ongoing research and debate in the scientific community.

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