Terrorism: an answer is needed

[scott_sieger]

Mr Bush I have a question:

Interviewer: "In our efforts to stamp out terrorism how many terrorists have we managed to elliminate"?

Bush: "Maybe a few dozen"

Interviewer: "How many terrorist do you think we have created?"

Bush: "hmmmm..."

I just thought I'd start a discussion on what we think is the answer to the problem of terrorism.

What philosophy is behind the creation of a terrorist?

What philosphy is needed to rid the world of terrorism, in the future?

 

[Zero]

Violence breeds violence, so killing terrorists is not the solution. Education, and sociaoeconomic equality worldwide would help curb it, although it probably isn't a 100% solution.

 

[Njorl]

Combatting terrorism is best done before it starts, but I don't think that is what anybody wants to hear. After it starts, stopping it is very hard. Violent repression breeds more terrorists, but so does success on the part of the terrorists. This means that the direct opposition to the terrorists must be done very carefully. Intelligence is much more important than firepower.

But you will never win with just direct confrontation. You must remove the causes of terrorism. Even that is not enough. Once terrorists gain significant stature, they will become self-perpetuating. They will actually start sabotaging efforts to placate their base, to keep a state of terrorist conflict going. Every organization, from the most pacifist and altruistic to the most venal is led by people who enjoy having power. Terrorist organizations are led by violent people who like having power, and they don't give it up without a struggle.

To eliminate the terrorist organization, it must be subverted. Either the leaders of the organization are given a path to legitimate power, or some organization in the popular base is empowered to rival the terrorists. Most likely, the latter is done to leverage the former. IE, a non-terrorist organization is empowered as a rival to the terrorists, which encourages them to renounce terror and pursue legitimate means of redressing their grievances.

Even at this point, disaffected splinter groups will form. They will work against their traditional enemies, and those who betray the cause. They will work to sabotage peace. This is a tense period. It is incumbent upon all involved to see these splinter groups as the enemy of all, and not just themselves. They will attempt to inspire reprisals and broaden the conflict.

Njorl

 

[scott_sieger]

i feel that an even sadder truth would be to say that there is centuries of cultural hatred involved, Children and their childrens children conditioned into a state of cultural hatred. Thus perpetuating the conflict.

If i was a government member faced with this dilemma I would probably be very disillusioned with trying to find an answer to these problems.

How do you teach a 7 year old boy to put down his gun?

OK...it's a really sad picture but there is an answer. It's just a matter of finding it.

 

[THANOS]

The best way to be rid a terrorism is to not be afriad of their attacks.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by Zero
Education, and sociaoeconomic equality worldwide would help curb it, although it probably isn't a 100% solution.

Indeed. As for violence it's not the solution but
its a means of prevention when the solution is not
yet working. We try to educate people in any society,
for example, not to commit murder, but when they do
or when we know they're about to - the use of force is
the only option.

Live long and prosper.

 

[Zantra]

Terrorism isn't much more than mind control. If you've ever looked at the structure of terroism, it's roots lie with a select few at the top of an organization. There have been specials on this. There are 3 levels of terroism. First, you must understand that these people live in very poor conditions where what they think, feel, and do is controlled by the goverment, and they live in extreme poverty. So they are easily controlled when someone comes along and offers them a future, telling them that it's the capitalist american's fault that their life is this way, and that they must fix it by waging Jihad. Oh, and if you die in duty, you'll get 98 virgins and go straight to heaven. And that's how they do it. The bottom tier consists of foot soldiers. They don't speak english, and are generally uneducated. These are the recruiters. They may do the training to a degree, and set things up from outside the country. Then there is the middle level. These people generally have spent some time in the US, have some higher education, and are capable of blending into american culture. This level is the "sleeper cell" these are the people who actually carry out the attacks. The top tier consists of the generals who orchestrate the operations, funnel the money, setup the operation, etc. Osama and his generals would constitute this tier. The only way to fix the problem is to take out the top tier. This doesn't kill the organization, but it scatters it, and makes it less effective.

There may be no quick solution to the problem. We can stamp out Osama and Hussien, but others will pop up in their place. The only way to correct the problem is to bring them around to our way of thinking, which if it even happens, is a slow and long road that extends way beyond all our lifetimes.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by drag
Indeed. As for violence it's not the solution but
its a means of prevention when the solution is not
yet working. We try to educate people in any society,
for example, not to commit murder, but when they do
or when we know they're about to - the use of force is
the only option.

Live long and prosper.

But, on the other hand, violent response creates more terrorists...how do you break the cycle? More violence is obviously not the answer.

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by Zero
But, on the other hand, violent response creates more terrorists...how do you break the cycle?

Like you said, freedom, social and econimic progress and
equality, employment, democracy and so on. Unfortunately,
it is often practicly impossible to do this through
extrenal influence (unless you're sufficiently powerful -
like the US and very motivated).

Originally posted by Zero
More violence is obviously not the answer.

Nope, action is not taken to solve what's at the root
of the problem - that's what requires the solution,
action is taken in self-defense to prevent terrorist acts.

Live long and prosper.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by drag
Greetings !

Like you said, freedom, social and econimic progress and
equality, employment, democracy and so on. Unfortunately,
it is often practicly impossible to do this through
extrenal influence (unless you're sufficiently powerful -
like the US and very motivated).

Nope, action is not taken to solve what's at the root
of the problem - that's what requires the solution,
action is taken in self-defense to prevent terrorist acts.

Live long and prosper.

Action in 'self-defence' isn't a viable option, specifically because terrorists aren't soldiers. They don't wear a common uniform and show up for formations twice a day. There is no way to root out terrorists through violence, because nothing short of a police state and going dooe-to-door among the ONE BILLION Muslims is going to get all the Islamic extremists...and to try to do so will create more terrorism. You can't 'get tough' with terrorists, that shows them they are winning and creates more terrorists.

 

[scott_sieger]

you can't cage a song bird and expect it to sing

is it possible the answer is very simply asking what the terrorists actually want.?

Do they or we actually know what they want?

I mean scenerio one

MR. Bin Ladin, I speak for 3 billion people and I was wondering what you want these 3 billion people to be or do?

Well I would like 3 billion people to...hmmmmm...uhmmmmm...convert to islam.

MR. Bin Ladin, can I ask you how can we convert 3 billion people to islam and also what form of islam do you think all 3 billion people should convert to?

MY form of Islam of course he says.

And how do you think we can do this miracle to convert 3 billion people to believe as you do?

Well...hmmmmm...mmmmm...ummmmm...we should kill them if they don't.


Mr Bin ladin, and whose army should we use to kill all these people that don't agree with your religious views?

Mr Bin ladin how is this to be funded...?

God will find a way to fund it?

So Mr Bin ladin in the mean time while we wait for God to fund this evangalism what should we do?

Well I don't know wait I guess...

So Bin ladin can we expect some one to turn up with a bomb strapped to his body while we wait for God to fund this miracle?

Yes probably...but "I didn't do it"

But Mr bin ladin these suicide bombers are only expressing your views...How are you going to stop these suicide bombers?

Hmmmm convert them to Islam?

But Mr Bin ladin what form of Islam should these islamics convert to?

The one I believe in he says.

So how are you going to convert these suicide bombers to your version of Islam and what army are you going to use and how are you going to fund this conversion.

I'll find it by raising taxes?

Mr Binladin...who is going to pay these taxes?

The people I want to convert I suppose.

So Mr Bin laden we have a problem yes?

To convert the world to your belief the world has to convert...true?

True...he says

But you need an army to convert the world...yes?

So Mr Bin ladin ...I think maybe the sensible thing to do here is wait for God to take action...what do you think...after all he is the one you work for ...yes?

Mr Bin laden we would love to convert to islam but how do you think this is possible given human nature?

How is your form of Islam going to attract a genuine following?

How are you going to avoid a suicide christian bomber? or a hindu suicide bomber or a Scientology suicide bomber?

Mr Bin laden how would you end terrorism?

 

[Zero]

Bin Laden's requests were a little more nuanced than that...things like America not financing what he feels is Israeli terrorism.

 

[scott_sieger]

so maybe we should ask him what the solution is...kill all the jews...convert them to islam...ask him what the word convert means.

And how you can convert someone who is dead?

So Israel should not exist so Mr binladen where should it exist. Where do you put all these people?

I think what I am trying to suggest that some times insanity needs to be approached in a way that justifies the insanity in part but leads to a saner state.

Put Osama in the white hall make him the world leader he wants to be but give him the illusion of responsibility that that role entails.

Put padded walls inside the white house feed him the illusion of success. Make him feel he has achieved what his insanity requires.

Cost maybe 1 million a year. Cheaper than fighting a war because of his insanity and becoming just as insane as he is.

take away the need to fight...

let him and others win the war...aginst terrorism for you

and suggest a better way of doing things. (illsion and delusion can be used by the victum and also by the victor)

 

[Zero]

And bin Laden isn't the problem...focusing on a person doesn't get us anywhere.

 

[scott_sieger]

in this context Bin ladin isn't a person...bin ladin is a problem called terrorism.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by scott_sieger
in this context Bin ladin isn't a person...bin ladin is a problem called terrorism.

I can't get behind you on this one. Too much oversimplification is another reason why terrorism flourishes. The real issues are poverty, hunger, lousy medicine, and lack of education, all compounded by cutthroat capitalists exploiting the poor around the world, and American support for terrorists over the years.

 

[scott_sieger]

so...ask the terrorist what his solution is...they feel they have a solution...so ask them to show us the solution.

How do you feed so many million refugees?

How can you force someone to believe something at the end of a gun barrel. ask them to explain.

How can they tell when a man prays to mecca that he isn't actually praying to a cross.? ask them to explain.

How can they achieve what they want to achieve...not as an Ideal but as a reality?

And wait for an answer. Because you know what the answer is but do they?

 

[scott_sieger]

i'm not suggesting for a minute that the USA is not in part getting what she desearves. True she has made many mistakes in the past an so on. But she isn't strapping on a bomb and blowing people away. She may have provoked this sort of reponse this is true. And obviously she needs to learn a lesson... but not at the point of a gun...

It just shows you how difficult it is to lead the world...not easy hey...so ask the terrorist how they can do it better...what is their answer to a world energy crisis, to poverty, to injustice, how can reparations be made, how can we pay for our mistakes made in the past...the terrorists are people trying to be heard...so maybe we should listen to them...a little better... and strive for their sanity and not just our own.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by scott_sieger
i'm not suggesting for a minute that the USA is not in part getting what she desearves. True she has made many mistakes in the past an so on. But she isn't strapping on a bomb and blowing people away. She may have provoked this sort of reponse this is true. And obviously she needs to learn a lesson... but not at the point of a gun...

It just shows you how difficult it is to lead the world...not easy hey...so ask the terrorist how they can do it better...what is their answer to a world energy crisis, to poverty, to injustice, how can reparations be made, how can we pay for our mistakes made in the past...the terrorists are people trying to be heard...so maybe we should listen to them...a little better... and strive for their sanity and not just our own.

I'll agree with you that listening is a good first step. Unfortunately, we don't often hear the voices of the 'little' people who are, for instance, being trampled so that Walmart can seel their clothing for so cheap, or the Arabs who are being blown up so that Dick Cheney can make millions from his investments with Halliburton.