Exploring the Differences Between Photon and Matter Waves

[Varon]

I know electromagnetic field is not the wave function of photons. Photons have their own wave function like how matter waves like electrons have their own wave functions.

But why do photons produce electromagnetic wave while other moving*particles like neutrinos don't? What properties (spin? etc.) define a*photon? How do you turn a neutrino into an electromagnetic wave, or*into a photon for example?*

 

[Amok]

I have limited understanding of particle physics, but I'm pretty sure you can't turn a neutrino into a photon or vice versa. These particles are (together with a few others) the most fundamental constituents of matter. A photon has no mass, no charge and spin + or -1. Saying "electromagnetic wave" is just another way of saying "photons" IMHO.

 

[San K]

I know electromagnetic field is not the wave function of photons. Photons have their own wave function like how matter waves like electrons have their own wave functions.

But why do photons produce electromagnetic wave while other moving*particles like neutrinos don't? What properties (spin? etc.) define a*photon? How do you turn a neutrino into an electromagnetic wave, or*into a photon for example?*

electromagnetic field is real/measurable...i guess a photon is simply the smallest quanta of energy = a tiny chunk of (pulsating) electromagnetic field...

wave function is a mathematical term to model/describe phenomena we don't understand in a "physical" sense

one hypothesis:

electromagnetic field is happening/existing in time-space
wave function is a "shadow" of the photon ...some property...outside time-space...another dimension...

 

[Varon]

Of course not literally. I just want to know what makes photons so unique and the world literally full of photons or electromagnetic wave. Its somewhat strange why the neutrino showers we experience daily don't even produce electromagnetic wave. What is even stranger is that photon are not matter yet both photon and matter are described by wave functions. What is the counterpart of Em wave of photon in matter??

 

[Varon]

electromagnetic field is real/measurable...i guess a photon is simply the smallest quanta of energy = a tiny chunk of (pulsating) electromagnetic field...

wave function is a mathematical term to model/describe phenomena we don't understand in a "physical" sense

one hypothesis:

electromagnetic field is happening/existing in time-space
wave function is a "shadow" of the photon ...some property...outside time-space...another dimension...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon#Wave.E2.80.93particle_duality_and_uncertainty_principles

Wiki stated it is not a tiny chunky pulsating Em wave, but photon itself produce Em wave. How?

"However, experiments confirm that the photon is not a short pulse of electromagnetic radiation; it does not spread out as it propagates, nor does it divide when it encounters a beam splitter".[47] Rather, the photon seems to be a point-like particle since it is absorbed or emitted as a whole by arbitrarily small systems, systems much smaller than its wavelength, such as an atomic nucleus (≈10−15 m across) or even the point-like electron. Nevertheless, the photon is not a point-like particle whose trajectory is shaped probabilistically by the electromagnetic field, as conceived by Einstein and others; that hypothesis was also refuted by the photon-correlation experiments cited above. According to our present understanding, the electromagnetic field itself is produced by photons, which in turn result from a local gauge symmetry and the laws of quantum field theory (see the Second quantization and Gauge boson sections below)."

Duh, can't second quantization makes neutrino produce Em wave too...

 

[San K]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon#Wave.E2.80.93particle_duality_and_uncertainty_principles

Wiki stated it is not a tiny chunky pulsating Em wave, but photon itself produce Em wave. How?

"However, experiments confirm that the photon is not a short pulse of electromagnetic radiation; it does not spread out as it propagates, nor does it divide when it encounters a beam splitter".[47] Rather, the photon seems to be a point-like particle since it is absorbed or emitted as a whole by arbitrarily small systems, systems much smaller than its wavelength, such as an atomic nucleus (≈10−15 m across) or even the point-like electron. Nevertheless, the photon is not a point-like particle whose trajectory is shaped probabilistically by the electromagnetic field, as conceived by Einstein and others; that hypothesis was also refuted by the photon-correlation experiments cited above. According to our present understanding, the electromagnetic field itself is produced by photons, which in turn result from a local gauge symmetry and the laws of quantum field theory (see the Second quantization and Gauge boson sections below)."

Duh, can't second quantization makes neutrino produce Em wave too...

my understanding (looking forward to more enlightment from the forum...) a quantum cannot split or divide or propagate because it is the smallest chunk of energy

it would be point like because that is the smallest point/dot you can have...(in time-space)

all quanta = all chunks of energy ...will be point like, indivisible ...(in time-space)

 

[Varon]

I was wrong. Photon doesn't have a wave function. What is puzzling is how come photon and electron behave the same in the double slit experiment, election has wave function. Photon doesn't, it has Em wave. But how come one photon can still interfere with itself. Its like electromagnetic wave behave like a wave function? Hope you know the subtle sense of what I'm talking about.

According to wiki:

Both photons and material particles such as electrons create analogous interference patterns when passing through a double-slit experiment. For photons, this corresponds to the interference of a Maxwell light wave whereas, for material particles, this corresponds to the interference of the Schrödinger wave equation. Although this similarity might suggest that Maxwell's equations are simply Schrödinger's equation for photons, most physicists do not agree.[50][51] For one thing, they are mathematically different; most obviously, Schrödinger's one equation solves for a complex field, whereas Maxwell's four equations solve for real fields. More generally, the normal concept of a Schrödinger probability wave function cannot be applied to photons.[52] Being massless, they cannot be localized without being destroyed; technically, photons cannot have a position eigenstate , and, thus, the normal Heisenberg uncertainty principle ΔxΔp > h / 2 does not pertain to photons. A few substitute wave functions have been suggested for the photon,[53][54][55][56] but they have not come into general use. Instead, physicists generally accept the second-quantized theory of photons described below, quantum electrodynamics, in which photons are quantized excitations of electromagnetic modes.

 

[San K]

I know electromagnetic field is not the wave function of photons. Photons have their own wave function like how matter waves like electrons have their own wave functions.

But why do photons produce electromagnetic wave while other moving*particles like neutrinos don't? What properties (spin? etc.) define a*photon? How do you turn a neutrino into an electromagnetic wave, or*into a photon for example?*

neutrinos do not carry electric charge. Because neutrinos are electrically neutral, they are not affected by the electromagnetic forces which act on electrons.

photons are electro magnetic

 

[San K]

I was wrong. Photon doesn't have a wave function. What is puzzling is how come photon and electron behave the same in the double slit experiment, election has wave function. Photon doesn't, it has Em wave. But how come one photon can still interfere with itself. Its like electromagnetic wave behave like a wave function? Hope you know the subtle sense of what I'm talking about.

According to wiki:

Both photons and material particles such as electrons create analogous interference patterns when passing through a double-slit experiment. For photons, this corresponds to the interference of a Maxwell light wave whereas, for material particles, this corresponds to the interference of the Schrödinger wave equation. Although this similarity might suggest that Maxwell's equations are simply Schrödinger's equation for photons, most physicists do not agree.[50][51] For one thing, they are mathematically different; most obviously, Schrödinger's one equation solves for a complex field, whereas Maxwell's four equations solve for real fields. More generally, the normal concept of a Schrödinger probability wave function cannot be applied to photons.[52] Being massless, they cannot be localized without being destroyed; technically, photons cannot have a position eigenstate , and, thus, the normal Heisenberg uncertainty principle ΔxΔp > h / 2 does not pertain to photons. A few substitute wave functions have been suggested for the photon,[53][54][55][56] but they have not come into general use. Instead, physicists generally accept the second-quantized theory of photons described below, quantum electrodynamics, in which photons are quantized excitations of electromagnetic modes.

if maxwell equations are different than Schrödinger's...would it lead to a slightly different interference pattern?

 

[Varon]

if maxwell equations are different than Schrödinger's...would it lead to a slightly different interference pattern?

This is what bothered me. Photon and Electron are so different. Photon has a real wave in the case of electromagnetic wave while electron has probabilistic wave. And according to wiki:

"Nevertheless, the photon is not a point-like particle whose trajectory is shaped probabilistically by the electromagnetic field, as conceived by Einstein and others; that hypothesis was also refuted by the photon-correlation experiments cited above"

Photons are so different from matter like electron or neutrino. Yet they behave the same in the double slit experiment. According to both wiki articles. "For photon double slit experiment, it corresponds to the interference of a Maxwell light wave".. yet "the photon is not a point-like particle whose trajectory is shaped probabilistically by the electromagnetic field". This is so different to electron which is described by wave function and probabilistic. So how come they have similar behavior in that both can interfere with itself?

 

[San K]

This is what bothered me. Photon and Electron are so different. Photon has a real wave in the case of electromagnetic wave while electron has probabilistic wave. And according to wiki:

"Nevertheless, the photon is not a point-like particle whose trajectory is shaped probabilistically by the electromagnetic field, as conceived by Einstein and others; that hypothesis was also refuted by the photon-correlation experiments cited above"

Photons are so different from matter like electron or neutrino. Yet they behave the same in the double slit experiment. According to both wiki articles. "For photon double slit experiment, it corresponds to the interference of a Maxwell light wave".. yet "the photon is not a point-like particle whose trajectory is shaped probabilistically by the electromagnetic field". This is so different to electron which is described by wave function and probabilistic. So how come they have similar behavior in that both can interfere with itself?

- maybe there is some electromagnetic effect in case of electron too?

on a separate note...see the below from ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron

Virtual particles
Main article: Virtual particle
Physicists believe that empty space may be continually creating pairs of virtual particles, such as a positron and electron, which rapidly annihilate each other shortly thereafter.[78] The combination of the energy variation needed to create these particles, and the time during which they exist, fall under the threshold of detectability expressed by the Heisenberg uncertainty relation, ΔE · Δt ≥ ħ. In effect, the energy needed to create these virtual particles, ΔE, can be "borrowed" from the vacuum for a period of time, Δt, so that their product is no more than the reduced Planck constant, ħ ≈ 6.6×10−16
eV·s. Thus, for a virtual electron, Δt is at most 1.3×10−21
s.[79]


A schematic depiction of virtual electron–positron pairs appearing at random near an electron (at lower left)
While an electron–positron virtual pair is in existence, the coulomb force from the ambient electric field surrounding an electron causes a created positron to be attracted to the original electron, while a created electron experiences a repulsion. This causes what is called vacuum polarization. In effect, the vacuum behaves like a medium having a dielectric permittivity more than unity. Thus the effective charge of an electron is actually smaller than its true value, and the charge decreases with increasing distance from the electron.[80][81] This polarization was confirmed experimentally in 1997 using the Japanese TRISTAN particle accelerator.[82] Virtual particles cause a comparable shielding effect for the mass of the electron.[83]

 

[Varon]

- maybe there is some electromagnetic effect in case of electron too?

I don't know. Let's wait for the experts to assist us here.

on a separate note...see the below from ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron

Virtual particles
Main article: Virtual particle
Physicists believe that empty space may be continually creating pairs of virtual particles, such as a positron and electron, which rapidly annihilate each other shortly thereafter.[78] The combination of the energy variation needed to create these particles, and the time during which they exist, fall under the threshold of detectability expressed by the Heisenberg uncertainty relation, ΔE · Δt ≥ ħ. In effect, the energy needed to create these virtual particles, ΔE, can be "borrowed" from the vacuum for a period of time, Δt, so that their product is no more than the reduced Planck constant, ħ ≈ 6.6×10−16
eV·s. Thus, for a virtual electron, Δt is at most 1.3×10−21
s.[79]


A schematic depiction of virtual electron–positron pairs appearing at random near an electron (at lower left)
While an electron–positron virtual pair is in existence, the coulomb force from the ambient electric field surrounding an electron causes a created positron to be attracted to the original electron, while a created electron experiences a repulsion. This causes what is called vacuum polarization. In effect, the vacuum behaves like a medium having a dielectric permittivity more than unity. Thus the effective charge of an electron is actually smaller than its true value, and the charge decreases with increasing distance from the electron.[80][81] This polarization was confirmed experimentally in 1997 using the Japanese TRISTAN particle accelerator.[82] Virtual particles cause a comparable shielding effect for the mass of the electron.[83]

 

[A. Neumaier]

I know electromagnetic field is not the wave function of photons. Photons have their own wave function like how matter waves like electrons have their own wave functions.

But why do photons produce electromagnetic wave while other moving*particles like neutrinos don't? What properties (spin? etc.) define a*photon? How do you turn a neutrino into an electromagnetic wave, or*into a photon for example?*

A photon is an excitation of the electromagnetic field, it doesn't ''produce'' the latter.
(Just as a water wave doesn't produce the water.)