Ethics applies primarily to human situations

[Moridin]

Which in your opinion would be?

 

[raolduke]

Ethics would probably be created just because the strong would survive and then set up a code of conduct.

 

[baywax]

Without ethics then couldn't you say that Darwins theory would show its true colors?

Survival of the fittest can mean a lot of different things. "Fittest" doesn't alway imply brute strength or strength in numbers. It can mean "intellectual fitness" and the cunning tactics of survival that are spawned by that kind of strength.

I'd say that Darwin's Theory of Evolution is well supported by the development of ethics in human societies. Ethics evolved with humans as a survival tool for every civilization. Its fairly obvious that evolution passed along valuable tools, like the brain, to use in the survival of the species "competition".

You could be right in the sense that without ethics, our families, groups, societies, communities and civilizations would all collapse in disorder and disarray. But that would simply be a function of and more evidence of evolution itself.

Here's a thread on the PF where religion, morals and ethics are discussed as playing a large role in maintaining the longevity of civilizations.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1307391#post1307391

 

[raolduke]

I already agree with that. Its just to show that ethics can never be absolute. Not to say that you couldn't apply "ethical" to a properly working machine or system. This is just a little word fun but - Man vs. Machine, How would you explain society?. It works exactly how it wants (perfectly) with flaw.

 

[baywax]

I already agree with that. Its just to show that ethics can never be absolute. Not to say that you couldn't apply "ethical" to a properly working machine or system. This is just a little word fun but - Man vs. Machine, How would you explain society?. It works exactly how it wants (perfectly) with flaw.

It appears, after studying evolution, that it is the "flaws" that lead to new, better evolved strengths in life and in society. Since the Russian Holocaust of the Ukrainians (est. 12,000,000 killed) and the German Holocaust of the Hebrews (est. 6,000,000 killed) there have been fewer and less brutal "unethical" events such as those. (Now there is more sensitivity and caution used to stop such possible events). These flaws may have acted as a "wake up" call that helped steer the evolution of the human society in a direction of cooperative longevity. And that is all about survival.

 

[raolduke]

Wouldnt humanity be better off if, to say, Hitler did accomplish his goal. It wouldn't seem that great at first but it would turn out nicer. The problem with people is that they expect home-runs right off the bat.

 

[baywax]

Wouldnt humanity be better off if, to say, Hitler did accomplish his goal. It wouldn't seem that great at first but it would turn out nicer. The problem with people is that they expect home-runs right off the bat.

How would "it turn out nicer" according to your reasoning, if any?

 

[raolduke]

I am not to sure of Hitler’s theories, maybe you do, but population control means diversity would be eliminated. If the government was completely controlling (reference to Orwell inserted here) and if things ever degenerated to concepts like "newspeak" it would eliminate conversations like the one we are having now. We would be completely dull but in my opinion that wouldn't be such a bad thing.
To say that I am a sadist and I only practice my belief on people who feel pleasure from pain (masochists) - is there anything wrong with this?

 

[baywax]

I am not to sure of Hitler’s theories, maybe you do, but population control means diversity would be eliminated. If the government was completely controlling (reference to Orwell inserted here) and if things ever degenerated to concepts like "newspeak" it would eliminate conversations like the one we are having now. We would be completely dull but in my opinion that wouldn't be such a bad thing.
To say that I am a sadist and I only practice my belief on people who feel pleasure from pain (masochists) - is there anything wrong with this?

Hitler practiced his sadistic measures on non-consenting participants. Including homosexuals, sexual deviants, gypsies, Hebrews, Africans, resistance fighters (Dutch, Polacks, Russians, Communists, Democrats, and many others). He expected his staff to commit suicide with him (allegedly) in his Berlin bunker rather than give up to the allies. Many didn't and fled after he (allegedly) killed himself. Some have speculated that he escaped and survived to form Ikea in Sweden.

If you practice your sadistic pleasures in the same manner as Hitler, it is by every indication unethical and it won't last long because of reprisals and revenge seekers.

 

[Moridin]

raolduke, evolution or Darwin does not state that the strongest is the one that survives, it is the survival of the fittest, not strongest. Fittest in this concept is not the one that is the most well-trained individual, it just means that the individual best suited for survival will survive in a given environment. Evolution does not work towards a goal of better organisms on an absolute scale.

 

[baywax]

raolduke, evolution or Darwin does not state that the strongest is the one that survives, it is the survival of the fittest, not strongest. Fittest in this concept is not the one that is the most well-trained individual, it just means that the individual best suited for survival will survive in a given environment. Evolution does not work towards a goal of better organisms on an absolute scale.

This all seems true. Take the dinos again for example. These were demonstratively unethical creatures yet their species survived the rigors of living on this planet for over 300 million years. That's a long reign for any species. It was only until humans or their immediate anscestors were required to live cooperatively, in groups, in trees, on the savanah or on the beach that they somehow learned to develop an ethic.

What was it that brought about the development of ethics in groups of humans? Did they learn by trial and error? Was it a trait learned by example from other animals such as elephants or wolves?