A few questions about PHD in the UK

[djosey]

Hey forum!

Now, to give you a quick background, I'm a 25 year old french guy, planning my career in physics at the moment. So I've come across something that I've found to be quite surprising: in the UK, a PHD seems doable without a masters degree and after only three years of undergraduate study. And a phd takes 3 to 5 years. Now for me this possibility sounds very appealing, you have your phd one year earlier than in my country (France) and you are eligible to phd funding much earlier too. However, it also raises some questions:

• wouldn't a candidate with only a honours degree be disadvantaged compared to a candidate with a masters as he applies for a phd or funding? what other possible drawbacks could there be of not doing a masters degree?

• what's the rough % of people with an undergraduate degree (assuming with good grades) who would have the possibility of doing a phd if they wanted to. To clarify, is there lots of competition and selection at the undergraduate - phd frontier in the UK?

• Are there any other countries who have a similar system?

• One bonus, more general question: what's the percentage of phd students who are funded? From what I've seen, it seems to be the norm (i'm including teaching and research assistanships here), i'd like a confirmation on that if possible.

 

[NobodySpecial]

The reason for the three year PhD and no masters is that UK undergrad degrees are much more specialised - at most unis there are no minors or arts courses required. There is also much more specilaisation in schools, you can study only say maths and physics from 16-18 before starting a physics degree.

But I think most PhDs now require a 4year undergrad - although not a masters.
In recent years UK ugrad degrees added an extra year to make up for the fact that schoolkids are getting much smarter each year (as shown by rising exam grades) - if only we could discover the process which caused them to arrive at university in october apparently knowing nothing.

The three years is an official figure - it's rare to finish in under 4.

All UK student PhDs are funded by a research council and include a stipend (amount varies with subject) IIRC that includes other Eu students. In my day anyone with a 1st or 2.1 was eligible for a PhD.
The amount of competition generally depend son the job market.

 

[djosey]

Thanks for the answer, i also called a uk university (Liverpool, random choice) and they told me that although the undergrad is 3 years, you have to do an mphil for one year before doing a phd.

 

[cristo]

Thanks for the answer, i also called a uk university (Liverpool, random choice) and they told me that although the undergrad is 3 years, you have to do an mphil for one year before doing a phd.

This isn't necessarily true. What normally happens is that you enrol onto the MPhil course, but then get transferred onto the PhD course after the first (or second) year. The total length of your PhD, though, includes the time spent as an MPhil student, and you don't actually receive an MPhil degree. The only real reason for enrolling students onto the MPhil is so that they can kick out students who are not likely to be successful for a PhD after a year or two with an MPhil degree.


As for your other questions. It is true that you only need a Bachelor's degree to get accepted onto the PhD program though, in practice, most people have a four year undergrad degree (referred to as an undergrad masters in the UK).

PhD's themselves now normally take more than three years: in fact, the funding councils now provide funding for 3.5-4 years as a standard. As a European, you are eligible for funding and, in fact, I would advise you not to take a position that did not come with funding. You don't normally need to do teaching as part of your studentship, though there are usually options to do some teaching.

I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment: hope that helps, but if you have any other questions feel free to ask.

 

[Hootenanny]

To expand on what cristo said, the usual route into a PhD is either: (a) an undergraduate Bachelor's degree (3 years), followed by a Postgraduate Master's degree (Usually 1-2 years); or (b) a four year undergraduate masters degree. However, it is possible to get on to a PhD programme with a Bachelor's degree. Obviously, the entry requirements will vary from place to place but typically, the entry requirements will be higher if you have only a bachelor's degree.

Most PhD are funded for 3.5-4 years as cristo said. However, many universities will apply rules on the minimum and maximum period of study. This will vary from university to university, but will typically be a minimum of 2 years, up to a maximum of 4 years for full time study.

In terms of teaching, if your PhD place is funded by a Research Council, then you are not required to do any teaching. Indeed, the amount of teaching your are permitted to do is limited by your grant conditions. However, it is also possible to apply for so called Teaching Assistantships where the university will pay you a stipend in return for carrying out a minimum number of teaching hours per year, whilst you study for your PhD.

With regards to completion, again this fluctuates from place to place and year to year.

 

[epenguin]

Definitely look into the support offered by the EU under its Marie Curie Programme.

At a quick look the most relevant programme for you would be the People - Initial Training Networks. However look at other relevant Programmes in Framework Programme 7 too which may have training activities too - I think there is a common entry point.

If you are successful you will probably find more generous individual funding than from UK sources. But maybe not an unrestricted choice of places across the field. As far as I can make out on a quick perusal support for training would be available within the funded networks of (excellent) laboratories. You might get into one (or even be required to) involving a French research centre which could be an advantage as you would not be cut off from activities in your home country easing possible return.

However, recognise you will have to put effort into this. Firstly EU documentation has never been famed for user-friendliness. However you are French so you will be less shocked by this than a normal person. Once you have made as much sense as you can there is probably an office in your University whose job it is to follow the Programmes, perhaps also participating laboratories, so try get help and explanations from them, and maybe you can find a helpdesk at the EU but maybe this job has now been devolved to national centres. Your intended host should also have info and would need to be involved with your application.

Pay careful attention to form-filling, all necessary instructions and details are important e.g. if you forget to sign, date or get signed and dated a page where indicated you're out. Any DEADLINES (usually for reception, not sending) are RIGID.

Do not over illude yourself that everything can be done according to your personal timetable. I do not know the situation now but the theoretical 3 yr for the UK Ph.D. used to be in practice more the exception than the rule.

Some starting places:
http://cordis.europa.eu/fp7/home_fr.html

ftp://ftp.cordis.europa.eu/pub/fp7/docs/wp/people/m-wp-201101_en.pdf[/URL]


[url]http://cordis.europa.eu/search/index.cfm?fuseaction=prog.document&PG_LANG=FR&PG_RCN=8501154&pid=4&q=A834F06AA980B7B291C0EDC838B0DEDF&type=sim[/url]

[url]http://cordis.europa.eu/fp7/dc/index.cfm?fuseaction=UserSite.FP7DetailsCallPage&call_id=313[/url]

 

[fasterthanjoao]

Basically what cristo says is what you want, but i'll just chime into re-iterate.

• wouldn't a candidate with only a honours degree be disadvantaged compared to a candidate with a masters as he applies for a phd or funding? what other possible drawbacks could there be of not doing a masters degree?

Maybe. There are lots of Bsc students that go on to PhD's, but as has been said, the norm in the UK is trending towards an undergraduate masters, and Msci before PhD.

• what's the rough % of people with an undergraduate degree (assuming with good grades) who would have the possibility of doing a phd if they wanted to. To clarify, is there lots of competition and selection at the undergraduate - phd frontier in the UK?

Students I have worked with have always been able to find a PhD position *somewhere* if they wanted one. Whether or not it's exactly what they originally wanted to do is something else. It becomes difficult if you want to go to a specific research topic at a specific institution, but if you are flexible and have good grades you should be OK. Unfortunately, my department has roughly exactly the right amount of funding for applicants that would actually accept our offers. (This is unfortunate as it means we have less of a quality-control type approach, and more a *fill the positions* type.)

• One bonus, more general question: what's the percentage of phd students who are funded? From what I've seen, it seems to be the norm (i'm including teaching and research assistanships here), i'd like a confirmation on that if possible.

Unless there's some crazy situation (or the PhD is part-time), all UK students are funded, and funding is available for EU students as well. It isn't the norm for teaching/research assistantships to exist though, the funding is purely for your PhD work - so look for those positions. It is the norm for UK PhD students to make a little extra cash supervising some tutorials, lab work or marking. In some universities, this stuff is optional, in some it isn't.

 

[Shaun_W]

Something to take into account is that the Tories are in power and thus university budgets are getting decimated. It might be a lot more difficult to get funding seeing as the Tories are hardly allies of the sciences.

Generally it's preferred that you have a masters before doing a PhD; whether this is an MSc (post graduate masters) or MSci (undergraduate masters) doesn't make any difference. Although there are some candidates who go straight from a bachelors onto an MPhil/PhD. If you don't make the PhD then you get an MPhil as a condolence.

 

[djosey]

Wow, many thanks for the number and quality of the answers. And it's mostly good news too:-).

 

[fasterthanjoao]

Something to take into account is that the Tories are in power and thus university budgets are getting decimated. It might be a lot more difficult to get funding seeing as the Tories are hardly allies of the sciences.

I don't really like to talk politics on here, but I don't think it's as simple as that. I sit on a funding board and can say that the EPSRC and STFC have been planning for 10-30% cuts on funding margins from the government for around 24 months now. They knew it was coming whoever came into power next. Also, I've found that PhD programmes aren't being hit *too* badly - they're cheap compared to the kind of money we're talking. Also CASE positions are still looking pretty good where I work, the amount of money a company has to invest to get some potentially quality research is absolutely minimal. What I am seeing is less money being given out for research, the funding boards are being more picky about the type of work they award grants for and post-doc positions having shorter and shorter fixed term contracts now.