Contemporary views of God invalid.

[Mattius_]

My outlook, which was once influenced by the outlook some youth ministers is that God wants me to be happy. This is wrong, God does not want me or anyone else to be happy.

Why?

Because God is all powerful, that is, according to these contemporary Christians. If God wanted humans to be happy, POOF, we would be happy, because God gets what God wants, that is, according to contemporary Christians. So It would seem to me that if God really wanted us to be happy, he would make us happy himself!

So it seems to me that this proves that God doesn't want us to be happy.

Now I know the argument against my theory is that God wants us to earn this happiness, well this may be valid. But if this is the case, then it is not happiness God wants us to have, it is earning happiness, through experience. It is EXPERIENCE, not happiness, that God wants us to have.

But!, again we must return to my point that God gets what God wants, and so, if God wanted us to be experienced, then he would have made it so! Its that easy for him to do, because he is all-powerful, remember?

So I have come to the conclusion that God wants the status-quo! He wants everything that is happening today to happen! Because if he didnt, It wouldn't happen!

So, there are two possibilities here.

1) Either God does not have control over us, and thus be capable of being unhappy with the status-quo

OR

2) God is content with everything that is happening in the world.

So, in that light, If you are unhappy with things that are currently happening in the world, it is because God wants you to be unhappy, because he could change it at any time if he wanted to, but doesnt!

Oy, sometimes I think God wants me to be confused :yuck:

 

[Imparcticle]

Because God is all powerful, that is, according to these contemporary Christians. If God wanted humans to be happy, POOF, we would be happy, because God gets what God wants, that is, according to contemporary Christians. So It would seem to me that if God really wanted us to be happy, he would make us happy himself

If that was indeed the case, then people would complain about God not letting us have freewill. Oh, but then we would always be happy. We wouldn't care about our freewill, just that we were happy.
Did it also occur to you that what makes some people happy doesn't neccesraily make other people happy? What makes me happy is studying. For other people it is the contrary choices.

So, in that light, If you are unhappy with things that are currently happening in the world, it is because God wants you to be unhappy, because he could change it at any time if he wanted to, but doesnt!

According to that philosophy, we are not individuals. We won't have opinions about what can make us happy and what can't.

 

[loseyourname]

Are you saying that God cannot provide different sets of circumstances for different people (that is, make them all happy in their unique way)?

 

[Imparcticle]

Hmm...Indirectly I guess. Oh, I can't believe I over looked that.

Now I know the argument against my theory is that God wants us to earn this happiness, well this may be valid. But if this is the case, then it is not happiness God wants us to have, it is earning happiness, through experience. It is EXPERIENCE, not happiness, that God wants us to have.

But!, again we must return to my point that God gets what God wants, and so, if God wanted us to be experienced, then he would have made it so! Its that easy for him to do, because he is all-powerful, remember?

Experience is inevitable.

 

[Janitor]

One viewpoint that has been expressed in these discussion pages is that God desires to be worshiped by human beings, but He would not get satisfaction from our worship if He had designed us to be "robots." To such people, it somehow makes sense that at some point in time (I had thought during the time of Adam and Eve and the Tree of Knowledge, but another member quoted scriptures indicating it was the time of Noah) God activated the pathological abilities of bacteria and viruses so that humans--and non-humans as well!--would suffer disease and death. To such minds, when a cow gets a cancerous tumor of the eye, or a human suffers the agony of encephalitis brought on by West Nile virus, it is because God does not want humans to be robots. At least, I think that is the thought process running through the minds of Bible believers. Maybe I am still missing some key part of the chain of logic.

From a Biblical perspective, is it wrong for us to spray a pond of water to kill mosquitoes in order to cut down on the number of incidents of West Nile infection? Does God want X number of humans to suffer at any time from this disease, or any others you want to name? If that is the case, are we not thwarting His will by spraying pesticide?

 

[Mattius_]

Basically my main point was that God gets what God wants, and so, if he dislikes anything, then he would change it.

So if people are happy/unhappy, then it is because God wants them to be that way.

Basically I am just pointing out contradictions in Christian philosophy.

In one respect it says that God is all powerful, and gets what he wants.

In another, it says we can displease him.

Now to me, this is a contradiction.

 

[BoulderHead]

BoulderHead definition of "Gods Will";
That which has just happened.

[edit]
This goes deeper than a simple once-over.

 

[DrKareem]

Mattius and the rest who posted here overlooked something very important in my opinion. Let's assume that God wants us to be happy. So we are born happy, and we die happy. But can we know then that we are happy if never in our lives we didn't experience the unhappy parts of life? I don't think so.
From my point of view, everything in life is split into something, and it's opposite. So to really IDENTIFY something, you'd have to refer to its opposite. So in a sence, beauty is compared to ugliness, good tasting to bad tasting, Good to Evil, knowledge to ignorance.

Life depends on the harmony of the opposites. So if you don't experience unhappiness in your life, you won't even tell that you are happy, you will just exist in a certain weird state that i can't describe.
Hope that i made a clear point...

 

[Janitor]

So if you don't experience unhappiness in your life, you won't even tell that you are happy- DrKareem

So the kitten whose pelvis is crushed by a passing car's tire needs to spend those last hours of its life suffering in order to feel good about how relatively pain-free the earlier phase of its life was?

 

[DrKareem]

If you insist, yes.

 

[olde drunk]

So the kitten whose pelvis is crushed by a passing car's tire needs to spend those last hours of its life suffering in order to feel good about how relatively pain-free the earlier phase of its life was?

within the theme of this thread.

perhaps, if the physical world is to be experienced, the cat wanted to experience that type of pain.

i do know that i don't enjoy pain, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have a value within the scheme of the universe.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[BoulderHead]

Let's assume that God wants us to be happy.

This is a rather bold assumption, but ok.

So we are born happy, and we die happy.

Not necessarily, but ok.

But can we know then that we are happy if never in our lives we didn't experience the unhappy parts of life? I don't think so.

Does it even matter if we know?
After all, your original assumption is only that God wants us to be happy. What you’ve done now is added a new twist; God wants us to be able to appreciate happiness (by allowing for unpleasant alternatives).

From my point of view, everything in life is split into something, and it's opposite. So to really IDENTIFY something, you'd have to refer to its opposite. So in a sence, beauty is compared to ugliness, good tasting to bad tasting, Good to Evil, knowledge to ignorance.

Life depends on the harmony of the opposites. So if you don't experience unhappiness in your life, you won't even tell that you are happy

Which supports a rather different assumption from your original one, namely; that God's primary goal is not that we be happy but rather, that we learn why happiness merits our appreciation.

…you will just exist in a certain weird state that i can't describe.

How about calling it; perpetual happiness?

 

[BoulderHead]

within the theme of this thread.

perhaps, if the physical world is to be experienced, the cat wanted to experience that type of pain.

i do know that i don't enjoy pain, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have a value within the scheme of the universe.

love&peace,
olde drunk

Then why assume the cat wants to experience that type of pain, since you obviously do not ?

 

[loseyourname]

You know something, Kareem? Maybe this isn't the case for you, but every time I think back to the times I was happiest, I didn't even realize I was happy. I think I like it better that way.

 

[Evo]

within the theme of this thread.

perhaps, if the physical world is to be experienced, the cat wanted to experience that type of pain.

olde drunk, I usually enjoy your posts, but I have to disagree here.

Bad things happen. There is no god, IMHO. I turned away from a belief in god when I was 8 because I realized that the god depicted in the bible was a shallow, hateful, jealous, vindictive person that happened to carry the values of people that lived roughly 1,500-2,000 years ago when this stuff was written. I realized the bible was all made up by men. It was all a fairy tale written to give guidelines to the people of those times.

I'm actually sad that there is no "good god". It would be nice to believe that someone "up there" is taking care of me. There is no evidence of that though. Very bad things happen to innocent people and animals. What "god" would allow this? A perverted, twisted, and sinister god perhaps. If there is a god, why does everyone automatically assume he is good? I think there is more evidence to just the opposite. If there is a god, he is not very nice.

 

[Moonrat]

Perhaps God just wants life to increase in intelligence and create order inside of chaos. If so, then we seem right on track.

It's trying to figure out what Woman wants that drives me nuts!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[olde drunk]

olde drunk, I usually enjoy your posts, but I have to disagree here.

Bad things happen. There is no god, IMHO. I turned away from a belief in god when I was 8 because I realized that the god depicted in the bible was a shallow, hateful, jealous, vindictive person that happened to carry the values of people that lived roughly 1,500-2,000 years ago when this stuff was written. I realized the bible was all made up by men. It was all a fairy tale written to give guidelines to the people of those times.

I'm actually sad that there is no "good god". It would be nice to believe that someone "up there" is taking care of me. There is no evidence of that though. Very bad things happen to innocent people and animals. What "god" would allow this? A perverted, twisted, and sinister god perhaps. If there is a god, why does everyone automatically assume he is good? I think there is more evidence to just the opposite. If there is a god, he is not very nice.

Evo, first thank you.

Now, you prove my point. If there is no god, in traditional terms, then all things that happen are the result of choice; no puppet master.

isn't it liberating to know that you and you alone chose your present and past experiences. how powerful to know that you will be the creator of your future.

to me, the universe is god. whatever i wish to accomplish (without being ridiculous and within our accepted physical limits) the universe will assist my efforts.

a super-consciousness grows and expands as each of us experience new and unique events. no two cats or humans will experience being run over the same way. if you got to go then go out with a flourish.

i am over simpifying for the idea within this thread. why can some of us handle having a tooth drilled without medication and others need to be sedated just to allow the dentist to touch a tooth?? some can detach or get into the pain and others feel it beyond any tolerable limit.

so without a good or bad god we are free! we chose the time, place and manner of our birth, our parents and the overall enviornment we wanted to asist us in our journey toward today. today we make choices that add to our historical choices for a tomorrow.

it is both liberating and scary to realize that we are responsible for our life experience. yes it would be nice to have that nice olde man up there looking after us like a gentle, loving parent. i believe we do, but in a different way. we make the decisions and the universal consciousness provides all the necessary assistance we need.

i see it as a spiritual co-operative. you send out a message and the whole universe listens. spiritually, i and everyone else lends their support; this includes realities and consciousnesses that we are unaware of. (my grammar sux)

we are not alone, but still masters of our fate.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[olde drunk]

Perhaps God just wants life to increase in intelligence and create order inside of chaos. If so, then we seem right on track.

It's trying to figure out what Woman wants that drives me nuts!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

give it up! you ain't never going to figger it out!

accept them as they are. we're wired differently and there is the yin-yang thingy, two sides of the same coin. keep try'n and you'll have more chaos!

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[Janitor]

isn't it liberating to know that you and you alone chose your present and past experiences. how powerful to know that you will be the creator of your future.- olde drunk

Some days back in another thread I mentioned a news story about the three occupants of a vehicle killed when a girder on an overpass in Denver fell on their vehicle. Did the occupants in any way choose that as their future? I suppose you could say that the two adults chose to go out driving, and chose to take some particular route with some particular timing. But they surely did not choose to leave a girder lying loose on the side of an overpass span. And the child in the back seat arguably did not even make a choice to go along for the ride; likely it was, for all intents and purposes, forced to go along by one or both of the adults in the vehicle.

 

[Evo]

Life depends on the harmony of the opposites. So if you don't experience unhappiness in your life, you won't even tell that you are happy, you will just exist in a certain weird state that i can't describe.
Hope that i made a clear point...

I disagree. When I was a small child, I knew my parent's loved me and I was happy. At that point in my life I had never experienced the pain of not being loved or being unhappy. According to your theory I could not have known these things.

 

[Njorl]

Now, you prove my point. If there is no god, in traditional terms, then all things that happen are the result of choice; no puppet master.

A lack of God does not necessitate free will. In my opinion, neither exist.

Njorl

 

[olde drunk]

A lack of God does not necessitate free will. In my opinion, neither exist.

Njorl

if there is no puppet master, how can there be a deterministic future??

my future is decided by my choices in the present and past. actually, QM suggests that this present is a product of past and future expectations.

how do you see your future being decided without a god or freewill? pure chance?? chaos?

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[selfAdjoint]

my future is decided by my choices in the present and past. actually, QM suggests that this present is a product of past and future expectations.

But how do you know your choices and expectations are not all determined by the play of forces and causes? Who needs a puppetmaster?

 

[Njorl]

if there is no puppet master, how can there be a deterministic future??

my future is decided by my choices in the present and past. actually, QM suggests that this present is a product of past and future expectations.

how do you see your future being decided without a god or freewill? pure chance?? chaos?

love&peace,
olde drunk

Chaos, born of the application of natural laws.

In totality, they are too complex to master in real time. In any event, those same natural laws control the workings of my mind. I may make choices, but they are the result of a lifetime of outside influences that I never controlled. All thoughts of mine are the product of genetics and experience. We are flotsam on the ocean. At best, we can enjoy the waves and study the currents.

Njorl

 

[Janitor]

how do you see your future being decided without a god or freewill? pure chance?? chaos?- olde drunk

I can influence my future, but I can't force my future. By making the decision to not point a loaded revolver at my head and pull the trigger tonight, I make it far more likely that I will be able to wake up tomorrow morning and fix myself some breakfast. But I cannot guarantee that future. Maybe a heart attack will come in the night as I sleep, in which case I won't be having that high-cholesterol eggs & bacon breakfast after all.

 

[olde drunk]

[
But how do you know your choices and expectations are not all determined by the play of forces and causes? Who needs a puppetmaster?

i do not know as an abosolute fact that this is what is happening. i do know that as i was going through life all the other ideas all proved themselves to be false (my experience proved my beliefs for me).

there are causes and forces, and i have found that if you look at your inner self and your beliefs you find that you are the cause and join with the forces with the universe to manifest your present reality.

no one can prove either concept for you. i believe that we can only experience our own individual truths. some of these maybe wrong at a given time but necessary for the experience of that time and place.

we will each believe as we wish at any moment to fulfill the quality of that moment (even a negative event has quality).

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[olde drunk]

Chaos, born of the application of natural laws.

In totality, they are too complex to master in real time. In any event, those same natural laws control the workings of my mind. I may make choices, but they are the result of a lifetime of outside influences that I never controlled. All thoughts of mine are the product of genetics and experience. We are flotsam on the ocean. At best, we can enjoy the waves and study the currents.
Njorl

why be one dimensional? there is nothing ugly or unfriendly in your sub-conscious. It is your's afterall.

oops, do you deny a sub-conscious?? i'll stop til you answer.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[olde drunk]

I can influence my future, but I can't force my future. By making the decision to not point a loaded revolver at my head and pull the trigger tonight, I make it far more likely that I will be able to wake up tomorrow morning and fix myself some breakfast. But I cannot guarantee that future. Maybe a heart attack will come in the night as I sleep, in which case I won't be having that high-cholesterol eggs & bacon breakfast after all.

why don't you also create the heart attack?? why do we relinquish our powers to a god or biology or chemistry or ? are we affraid to accept responsibility for our pain as well as our joys?? is it easier to blame our parent for our genetic qualities. hell, at six-five i can't jump and rebound. do i blame my parents? for me, it makes more sense that i chose this miserable white man's disease. if i were young again, i'd work on technique, etc and maybe i'da been a better playa.

hey, i ain't perfect, but it is a damn sight better knowing that i made the me that I am today and not some god or biological or physical event(s).

eat all the bacon you want. bear in mind, if you believe it causes heart attacks you increase your chances for an attack. i don't believe it does, so i'll eat more becaon and enjoy it more. actually, i really don't care. got to die sometime, someway, so eating bacon ain't a bad form of sideways.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[Nicomachus]

Mattius, those are just naked assertions. You are making unjustified assertions and then seeking to discover the nature and aspects as well as make truth propositions with respect to those assertions. All you are doing is making vacuous truth statements.
*Nico

 

[Njorl]

why be one dimensional? there is nothing ugly or unfriendly in your sub-conscious. It is your's afterall.

oops, do you deny a sub-conscious?? i'll stop til you answer.

love&peace,
olde drunk

How am I being one-dimensional?

Believe me, there are plenty of ugly and unfriendly things in my sub-concious. They have nothing to do with the discussion at hand though.

Njorl

 

[loseyourname]

why don't you also create the heart attack?? why do we relinquish our powers to a god or biology or chemistry or ? are we affraid to accept responsibility for our pain as well as our joys?? is it easier to blame our parent for our genetic qualities. hell, at six-five i can't jump and rebound. do i blame my parents? for me, it makes more sense that i chose this miserable white man's disease. if i were young again, i'd work on technique, etc and maybe i'da been a better playa.

hey, i ain't perfect, but it is a damn sight better knowing that i made the me that I am today and not some god or biological or physical event(s).

eat all the bacon you want. bear in mind, if you believe it causes heart attacks you increase your chances for an attack. i don't believe it does, so i'll eat more becaon and enjoy it more. actually, i really don't care. got to die sometime, someway, so eating bacon ain't a bad form of sideways.

love&peace,
olde drunk

I honestly doubt that my cousin chose to be born with spinal meningitis because he only wanted to live for two weeks.

 

[Nicomachus]

Right, I don't think olde drunk is living in reality. Simply because you don't think that a diet of bacon won't lead to a heart attack doesn't mean it won't. Come back to Earth whenever you get bored with relativism.
*Nico

 

[olde drunk]

How am I being one-dimensional?

Believe me, there are plenty of ugly and unfriendly things in my sub-concious. They have nothing to do with the discussion at hand though.
Njorl

Njordl: I see you viewing the world as only existing within what you can physically see and/or measure. you experience chaos because you believe it is beyond your control.

i submit, that if you access the total you (conscious, sub-conscious, spiritual and cosmic, plus whatever else we are) you might find that the experienced world is not out of your control, but rather respoding to your view that it is out of control.

all of what we are is reflected back to us by the universe. i believe that i control my reality with the assistance of the universal consciousness(es). i project my beliefs and expectations onto my reality and they are reflected back as experience.

i do not believe the subconsciousis ugly or unfriendly, it is a part of you and repressing that part of you may prove to be unhealthy. better to embrace and deal with all the supposed dark corners of the psyche. they aren't bad. when exposed to the light of examination they will give you better understanding of yourself and might offer insight for handling the chaos.

what have you got to lose? experiment! try looking at how you created your past experiences. accept resposibility for your birth, etc and see what you find. it don't cost nuttin.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[Nicomachus]

Njordl: I see you viewing the world as only existing within what you can physically see and/or measure. you experience chaos because you believe it is beyond your control.

i submit, that if you access the total you (conscious, sub-conscious, spiritual and cosmic, plus whatever else we are) you might find that the experienced world is not out of your control, but rather respoding to your view that it is out of control.

all of what we are is reflected back to us by the universe. i believe that i control my reality with the assistance of the universal consciousness(es). i project my beliefs and expectations onto my reality and they are reflected back as experience.

i do not believe the subconsciousis ugly or unfriendly, it is a part of you and repressing that part of you may prove to be unhealthy. better to embrace and deal with all the supposed dark corners of the psyche. they aren't bad. when exposed to the light of examination they will give you better understanding of yourself and might offer insight for handling the chaos.

what have you got to lose? experiment! try looking at how you created your past experiences. accept resposibility for your birth, etc and see what you find. it don't cost nuttin.

love&peace,
olde drunk

Justification? Or are we just using naked assertions and "bad poetry"?
*Nico

 

[olde drunk]

my personal experiences!

love&peace,
olde drunk