Why Has Discussing Income Always Been Taboo?

[Pengwuino]

I've always been raised with the idea, as one person on another phone put it, that there are three things you don't talk about in life: sex, death, and income. Most ideas that are carried down from generation to generation seem to, at the least have a good basis for why they're good ideas. Sometimes the ideas may be outdated or the reasoning outdated... but talking about income perplexes me. I just KNOW you shouldn't talk about income, but why? And why has this been the case for SO long? In today's kinda money-centric culture, I can vaguely imagine reasons why this is the case. However, as far as I know, talking about income in polite company has been taboo since before any of us were even born. Why?

Now-a-days I can imagine with the income disparity having increased between people and with how much importance we've put on money... but what about way back in the day?

DISCUSS!

 

[Astronuc]

Probably because some of us are taught not to brag, i.e., one should not give into hautiness.

Such a conversation also might make others feel self-conscious.

What would be the point of discussing one's income with a casual acquaintance or friend?

 

[Jack21222]

I talk to people about income all the time. It has nothing to do with bragging, Astronuc, at least in my case, my income has never been anything to brag about.

 

[Astronuc]

The topic of wealth is perhaps more relavant than income.

The press, particularly the finanical/business press, likes to disclose the salaries of CEOs and business management. Publicly traded companies must disclose the compensation of senior management.

On the other hand, I don't discuss my income or wealth with anyone outside of my wife, or perhaps a selected investment advisor.

 

[Insanity]

Perhaps something to do with now you would know your relative position on the income scale, and the possibility you earn more or less comparatively then you thought.

I don't understand it myself, income has nothing to do with current financial status, many people with high income are up to their eyeballs in debt and save nothing, and many people who have earned a relatively lower income, retire early and well by living below that income and saving regularly.

 

[lisab]

I once worked in a tight-knit group with 3 men. We were a team, shared responsibilities, and had great rapport. We told each other what we were paid, even. To our amazement it we all earned the same amount, practically to the dollar. We always got the same raises and perks.

Because we had basically identical jobs, and not one of us was a slacker, there was no harm done by sharing this information, I think. But had one of us earned more or less than the others it would have been very detrimental to our esprit de corps.

I didn't like that company but one thing I know for certain: they didn't discriminate based on gender.

 

[russ_watters]

Probably because some of us are taught not to brag, i.e., one should not give into hautiness.

Such a conversation also might make others feel self-conscious.

I agree that those are the main reason - not that they are reasonable. People get hugely self conscious about income because it is a measurement of life success.

What would be the point of discussing one's income with a casual acquaintance of friend?

Income is hugely important to your life. It affects what home you'll buy, what car you'll buy, how often you can go to dinner and if you're willing to pitch-in a few extra bucks on that tab when you and your buddies are out for a beer. It is a hugely relevant issue for discussion with your friends. So I see where Penguino's coming from - that such an important issuee is tip-toed around or flat out ignored when talking to one's friends is pretty strange. But I do it like most do.

I used to talk about it with my friends, but I don't anymore.

On the other hand, I don't discuss my income or wealth with anyone outside of my wife, or perhaps a selected investment advisor.

I know my sister and her husband didn't discuss it with each other until they were engageed. And I don't know what my sister makes (nor do I).

 

[russ_watters]

I don't understand it myself, income has nothing to do with current financial status...

It may not be the only thing that affects financial status, but it is a very important piece of the puzzle.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I didn't think anyone here made enough money to brag about it. Anyone making significantly less than $50K a month is still just a working class grunt. Even a very small business can yield 60-80K per month in personal income for the owner.

 

[Gokul43201]

Anyone making significantly less than $50K a month is still just a working class grunt.

I hope to soon make that amount in a year. Oops, sorry for blurting that out - didn't mean to brag.

But on a more serious note (well, maybe not really), who says income is a private matter? Every year I have to hand out all the details of my income to the government.

 

[lisab]

I think for public employees, it's available as part of the FOIA.

 

[Gokul43201]

I think for public employees, it's available as part of the FOIA.

I don't think that's a bad thing.

By definition, my income is an aspect of an agreement negotiated between me and my employer, so no one else ought to have a right to know about it - just the two of us. However, if my employer is every taxpayer in the country, then they all ought to know how much they are paying me for my services.

 

[turbo]

When your income is disclosed in a legal fight, you'd better brace for jury nullification, since even if you are well-qualified to earn that income, if you earn a lot more than the jurors, and you are in a legal dispute with your employer, they will side with your employer. I can't tell you why, but it happened, and it was sick.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I'm afraid it will get back to my wife.

 

[turbo]

I'm afraid it will get back to my wife.

Ooh, bad! I hope she hasn't gotten a clue to our wildly successful hop-growing operation in Maine. I know that I bought that little 65' yacht last year as a lark, but I need to ramp up to 150' or so and crew up with chefs, masseuses, etc. Hops are Tops!

 

[Jack21222]

I didn't think anyone here made enough money to brag about it. Anyone making significantly less than $50K a month is still just a working class grunt. Even a very small business can yield 60-80K per month in personal income for the owner.

I suspect somebody making 35k per year is one of the richest people in the world, if you want to take a global perspective.

 

[lisab]

I suspect somebody making 35k per year is one of the richest people in the world, if you want to take a global perspective.

Indeed. I think everyone just thinks that they're middle class, regardless of income.

 

[OmCheeto]

About 12 years ago, my boss shoved a piece of paper in front of me and said; "Ya want to be management? Sign here!"

I looked at the pay for the year, got all excited, and signed on the dotted line.

It wasn't until the following year, when I did my taxes, that I realized I'd taken a 5% pay cut.

oops.



Maybe I keep it private, because I don't really care how much I make?

ps. I have 5 boats, 4 cars, 1 house, $200k in equity and retirement accounts, and more friends than I can count binarily on 20 fingers and toes. =8)

 

[flyingpig]

Money = Status in society

 

[nismaratwork]

Why should it be anything else?

I'm not telling people when I'm out of my home either...

 

[nismaratwork]

Money = Status in society

Money = Proxy for Power; Power = Status.

 

[caffenta]

Here's a scenario illustrating why it's better to keep your income (salary at least) between you, your employer and the IRS:

2 coworkers have similar jobs and they are both more or less content with their jobs and salaries. Then one day, salaries come up in a discussion and one person finds out he (or she) is payed much less than the other. Now he is miffed (understandably) and starts to resent his job, employer, and even his coworker perhaps. Nothing has changed really, job is still the same, salary is still the same, but the person grows very unhappy/resentful, and may even look for another job. Even though he was perfectly content before. I've seen it happen on more than one occasion.

That is why you should not discuss income in my opinion. If you make more than others, they might start to resent you, if you find out they make more than you, you will become the resentful one. I wouldn't even recommend it between friends who work at different companies. Only bad things can come from it.

What would be the point of discussing one's income with a casual acquaintance of friend?

Exactly. There is no point. And that's the best case scenario.

 

[russ_watters]

Exactly. There is no point. And that's the best case scenario.

There's no point in telling your friends what's going on in your life? Why have friends then?

 

[arildno]

In Norway, information about individual income is public.
Previously, this had little impact since you had to go down to the local IRS(?) office and leaf through their tomes to find the information about any particular person.
Only journalists who wanted to find out what the rich&famous earned bothered to do that.

For the last three or four years, this has drastically changed, since this information has been made freely available online.
Thus, for example, a 13-year old can now check up on his classmates' parents' income level.

This is SO wrong, on so many levels, but our idiot politicians refuse to do anything about it!

 

[caffenta]

There's no point in telling your friends what's going on in your life? Why have friends then?

What is so important about your actual salary/income that your friends need to know about? You could just say for example "hey I got a nice raise today! Round of beer for everyone. On me." Do you really need to say "hey, I make $123,456/year." I was just saying that talking about salary in absolute terms is a bad idea.

And as a side note, income is never a discussion with anyone I know. I don't care how much they make, and vice-versa. We'd rather have fun than count beans between ourselves.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Here's a scenario illustrating why it's better to keep your income (salary at least) between you, your employer and the IRS:

2 coworkers have similar jobs and they are both more or less content with their jobs and salaries. Then one day, salaries come up in a discussion and one person finds out he (or she) is payed much less than the other. Now he is miffed (understandably) and starts to resent his job, employer, and even his coworker perhaps. Nothing has changed really, job is still the same, salary is still the same, but the person grows very unhappy/resentful, and may even look for another job. Even though he was perfectly content before. I've seen it happen on more than one occasion.

That is why you should not discuss income in my opinion. If you make more than others, they might start to resent you, if you find out they make more than you, you will become the resentful one. I wouldn't even recommend it between friends who work at different companies. Only bad things can come from it.

Exactly. There is no point. And that's the best case scenario.

I was at a job that I did not particularly care for when I found out that the guy that was just hired was making more than me even though I had been there for nearly three years. It showed me how little my employers valued me and gave me more reason to look for another job.

I don't see why knowing what your coworkers are making is a bad thing. It keeps your employers honest and gives you valuable information which can lead you to looking for another job where you can maximize your earning potential.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I suspect somebody making 35k per year is one of the richest people in the world, if you want to take a global perspective.

You can take a global perspective here:
http://www.globalrichlist.com/"

US$ 35000 would put you comfortably in the top 5%.

 

[russ_watters]

What is so important about your actual salary/income that your friends need to know about?

As I said before, it affects a host of extremely important issues about how you live your life.

You could just say for example "hey I got a nice raise today! Round of beer for everyone. On me." Do you really need to say "hey, I make $123,456/year."

What purpose does it serve to be cryptic? Real friends don't have ego competitions, so there shouldn't be a downside. And sometimes specifics matter, ie: "I got a $300 a month raise so now I can use that to buy the car I've been eyeing."

Or better yet, if you tell your friends everything about your financial situation, they can help you deal with it. Again, a big part of the point of having friends is helping each other with problems. It is silly - ridiculous really - that one of the most important aspects of surviving as an adult is figured-out by people entirely on their own. And since there are a lot of people who don't manage their money well, it would help a lot if friends bounced ideas off each other.

I was just saying that talking about salary in absolute terms is a bad idea.

I know what you meant, but you said something completely differnent and very wrong. And what you really meant and others have said - that it's a bad idea - is only true if people are petty about it. If people are mature, it's a bad idea to not talk about it!

And as a side note, income is never a discussion with anyone I know. I don't care how much they make, and vice-versa. We'd rather have fun than count beans between ourselves.

How old are you? As you get older, you'll start to talk more about practiacl issues with your friends. Money in general is a hugely important issue when you're in your 20s and it is impossible to understand what your friends are going through without having a clear picture of their financial situation.

I have a friend who is completely clueless when it comes to managing his money so we share extremely specific things about money. For example, he pays way too much for his car insurance, so recently I copied my insurance bill and emailed it to him so he could see what I pay for each service. I've also helped him make budgets based on his actual income and expenses. That's what friends are for!

 

[Jack21222]

Here's a scenario illustrating why it's better to keep your income (salary at least) between you, your employer and the IRS:

2 coworkers have similar jobs and they are both more or less content with their jobs and salaries. Then one day, salaries come up in a discussion and one person finds out he (or she) is payed much less than the other. Now he is miffed (understandably) and starts to resent his job, employer, and even his coworker perhaps. Nothing has changed really, job is still the same, salary is still the same, but the person grows very unhappy/resentful, and may even look for another job. Even though he was perfectly content before. I've seen it happen on more than one occasion.

That is why you should not discuss income in my opinion. If you make more than others, they might start to resent you, if you find out they make more than you, you will become the resentful one. I wouldn't even recommend it between friends who work at different companies. Only bad things can come from it.

This is probably a good reason TO talk about income with coworkers. If I found out I was making significantly less than one of my coworkers doing the same job at the same quality, I'd have a great case to go to my manager for a raise. And even if I don't get the raise, I'd have a better idea of how much my job is worth as I look for a new one.

Would you say the same about your scenario if one coworker was male, the other was female, and the male was making significantly more for the same job? Are you really saying it's bad for the female to find out she's possibly being discriminated against based on her gender? Maybe she should have stayed quiet and happy with her low salary compared to male counterpart instead of finding out the truth of her situation, right?

 

[caffenta]

This is probably a good reason TO talk about income with coworkers. If I found out I was making significantly less than one of my coworkers doing the same job at the same quality, I'd have a great case to go to my manager for a raise. And even if I don't get the raise, I'd have a better idea of how much my job is worth as I look for a new one.

Good luck with your manager. I bet "Joe makes more than me, I want to make as much as Joe" is going to work really well. You have no negotiating power after you've been hired. The only time you can negotiate is during the hiring process. You can try telling your manager that you will quit if you don't get a raise, but he might just say "ok, no problem."

Find out what you are worth before you take the job. Negotiate everything in the beginning. After that, it's too late. You finding out that your coworker makes more means nothing to the employer. For higher-level positions, pay is not even. Emloyers are not required to pay everyone the same.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I'm unemployed just now, so I can tell you my income in a round figure.

 

[caffenta]

I'm unemployed just now, so I can tell you my income in a round figure.

Nooo! Some other unemployed guy may find out that he makes no more than you and he'll think "What?? Jimmy makes as much as me? But I'm way better than Jimmy!"

 

[Pythagorean]

fear that people below your income level will take advantage of you and people above your income level will judge you.

 

[D H]

I was at a job that I did not particularly care for when I found out that the guy that was just hired was making more than me even though I had been there for nearly three years. It showed me how little my employers valued me and gave me more reason to look for another job.

This is probably a good reason TO talk about income with coworkers. If I found out I was making significantly less than one of my coworkers doing the same job at the same quality, I'd have a great case to go to my manager for a raise. And even if I don't get the raise, I'd have a better idea of how much my job is worth as I look for a new one.

Note that both of the above posts were about coworkers who had greater salaries than the posters. If TheStatutoryApe or Jack21222 had found that they were paid more than their coworkers the line of thinking would have stopped at that point. What are you going to do, go to your boss and demand a pay cut?

There are plenty of reasons your coworker (call him "Joe") might have a salary greater than yours. The coworking might be better than you at negotiating salary. For those fairly fresh out of school, Joe might have went to a more prestigious school than you did, did more prestigious research, had a more prestigious GPA, or even done something as inconsequential as going to the boss' alma mater.

For people who have been working a while, past salary is a part of the negotiation process. Suppose Joe and you are working in the Research Triangle area of North Carolina. Joe moved there from California while you came from Texas. Joe's salary is heftier than yours simply because his California salary was a lot more than your Texas salary. While you received a huge increase in moving to North Carolina, Joe received nothing. He might well have been told during salary negotiations that they would match his current salary, but don't count on pay increases for a few years until your salary comes more into line with others.

Salary also depends on the competitiveness of the market when you were hired. If Joe was hired at a time when demand outstripped supply he had the opportunity to negotiate a very nice pay package. Look at it this way: Suppose supply outstrips demand and your employer can now hire people with a reduced salary. Your employer will take advantage of this, but they typically will not take advantage of it to the extent that they tell their employees they are giving everyone a 10% pay cut because they can get away with it.

 

[nismaratwork]

fear that people below your income level will take advantage of you and people above your income level will judge you.

BINGO

@D H: I was in that situation as a kid (14), working a summer job. What good would have come about by telling a co-worker that I was getting paid more? When I went into the managerial end, it was no longer an issue, but until then people might have quit... not gotten a raise.

It's not fun, but it's also just... courtesy. If I were in a culture where knowing the monetary value of something, and income was expected, I would conform to that cultural norml.