Lorrentz velocity transformation

In summary, the conversation is about deriving the velocity transformation between vy and vy' for a special relativity problem. The person is having trouble with their result and is seeking clarification on where they may have gone wrong. They discuss the Lorrentz transformation for time and velocity, and clarify the direction of motion for the origin and object in different frames. Ultimately, the correct result is given and the person plans to ask for further clarification in class.
  • #1
Mangoes
96
1
I'm being asked to derive the velocity transformation between vy and vy' and my result isn't exactly matching my goal but I don't know what I'm doing wrong. It's an introductory modern physics course and we're covering special relativity.

Assume a reference frame S' moving in some constant velocity vx with respect to a stationary frame S. Since time isn't synchronized (dt ≠ dt') then the velocities vy and vy' aren't the same even though y and y' aren't being affected by length contraction (y = y'). The aforementioned statement isn't necessary for the following but I'm just wondering if the above is a correct statement.

Anyways, this is my logic:
Since y = y', dy = dy'. I want to know dy/dt'. From the chain rule:

[tex] \frac{dy}{dt'} = \frac{dy}{dt}\frac{dt}{dt'} [/tex]

Letting [tex] λ = \frac{1}{(1 - (v/c)^2)^{1/2}} [/tex], the Lorrentz transformation for time is:

[tex] t' = λ(t - \frac{vx}{c^2}) [/tex]

Since there is no fundamental difference between two inertial reference frames, the inverse transformation must be of the same form:

[tex] t = λ(t' + \frac{vx'}{c^2}) [/tex]

In differential form,

[tex] dt = λ(dt' + \frac{vdx'}{c^2}) [/tex]

Now differentiating the above wrt t',

[tex] \frac{dt}{dt'} = λ(\frac{dt'}{dt'} + v\frac{dx'}{dt'}/c^2) [/tex]

[tex] \frac{dt}{dt'} = λ(1 + vv_x'/c^2) [/tex]

Going back to my original goal:

[tex] \frac{dy}{dt'} = \frac{dy}{dt}\frac{dt}{dt'} = v_y\frac{dt}{dt'} [/tex]

[tex] \frac{dy}{dt'} = v_y(λ(1 + vv_x'/c^2)) [/tex]

...which is wrong. Where am I going wrong with this? Would appreciate some clarity.
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #2
Does the object have a velocity component also in the x-direction in S? What is ##v_x'## if ##v_x = v##?
 
  • #3
If I'm understanding correctly, yes, the object would have a velocity component in S. I just realized I should have been a little more clear in my first post.

The origin O' in S' is moving along with some velocity vx and an observer at rest in S' is observing an object P in S' to be moving in a direction parallel to the direction of S' with velocity u.

An observer in a stationary frame S would then see P's velocity to be given by the Lorrentz velocity transformation,

[tex] v_x' = \frac{v_x - u}{1 - \frac{uv_x}{c^2}} [/tex]

The inverse transform for vx in terms of vx would be obtained by swapping primes and replacing u by -u.

The more I think about it, the more I get confused though. If P is moving only in the direction parallel to motion of S' and both observers in S and S' agree that y = y', I'm not seeing how it's possible for P to be observed to have a velocity perpendicular to vx in either frame S or S'. I think I'll just have to ask for clarification in lecture because I think I must have misheard or misunderstood something in the premise.

The result I'm being asked should be

[tex] v_y' = \frac{v_y(1 - (v/c)^2)^{1/2}}{1 - \frac{uv_x}{c^2}} [/tex]
 
Last edited:
  • #4
Mangoes said:
The origin O' in S' is moving along with some velocity vx and an observer at rest in S' is observing an object P in S' to be moving in a direction parallel to the direction of S' with velocity u.
I think you have those mixed up. The origin O' is seen to move with velocity u in frame S (parallel to the x axis). The object moves with velocity v'x in S' and velocity vx in S.

I'm not seeing how it's possible for P to be observed to have a velocity perpendicular to vx in either frame S or S'.
It's not. You're mixing yourself up. If P is moving only in the x' direction according to S', then it will be moving only in the x direction according to S.
 
  • #5
Doc Al said:
I think you have those mixed up. The origin O' is seen to move with velocity u in frame S (parallel to the x axis). The object moves with velocity v'x in S' and velocity vx in S.

Yes, you're right. Thank you. I switched around vx and u.

Doc Al said:
It's not. You're mixing yourself up. If P is moving only in the x' direction according to S', then it will be moving only in the x direction according to S.

Yeah, I would think not. I'll just ask when I get the chance to clarify the premise. I must have misunderstood or misheard something.
 

Related to Lorrentz velocity transformation

1. What is the Lorrentz velocity transformation?

The Lorrentz velocity transformation is a mathematical equation used in special relativity to describe how velocities appear to change when observed from different reference frames.

2. Why is the Lorrentz velocity transformation important?

The Lorrentz velocity transformation is important because it allows us to reconcile the apparent discrepancy between the laws of physics as observed from different reference frames. It is a fundamental concept in special relativity and helps to explain the effects of time dilation and length contraction.

3. How is the Lorrentz velocity transformation calculated?

The Lorrentz velocity transformation is calculated using the equation: v' = (v + u)/(1 + vu/c^2), where v is the velocity in the original reference frame, u is the velocity of the second reference frame, and c is the speed of light.

4. Does the Lorrentz velocity transformation apply to all velocities?

No, the Lorrentz velocity transformation only applies to velocities that are a significant portion of the speed of light. At lower velocities, the classical Galilean transformation can be used instead.

5. Can the Lorrentz velocity transformation be used for objects with mass?

Yes, the Lorrentz velocity transformation can be used for objects with mass, as it is a fundamental principle of special relativity that all objects, regardless of their mass, must obey the same laws of physics. However, for objects with mass, the full Lorrentz transformation equation must be used, which includes the concept of relativistic mass.

Similar threads

  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
10
Views
326
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
13
Views
1K
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
11
Views
743
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
13
Views
1K
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
1
Views
744
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
2
Views
631
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
2
Views
850
Replies
8
Views
319
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
14
Views
1K
Back
Top