Help with free body diagram for a pendulum

In summary: The ##ml\ddot \theta## term is the acceleration of the mass (in the tangential direction) relative to the acceleration of the block.The torsion spring applies a torque. What is the relationship between force and torque?
  • #1
theone
81
0

Homework Statement


I want to sum the forces perpendicular to the pendulum and sum the moments about the pendulums center of gravity.

Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution


[itex]P\sin \theta - mg\cos \theta - N\cos \theta = -m\ddot x\cos \theta + ml\ddot \theta[/itex]
[itex]-Pl\sin \theta - Nl\cos \theta + K_t\theta= I\ddot\theta[/itex]

I want to know if these are correct, especially the plus/minus
 

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  • #2
You have a cosine and sine swapped in the first equation.
Your second equation looks doubtful in several respects. What point are you taking moments about? Is it ok to take moments about a point that is accelerating?
Do you even need to take moments, i.e. does the rod have mass?
 
  • #3
haruspex said:
You have a cosine and sine swapped in the first equation.
Your second equation looks doubtful in several respects. What point are you taking moments about? Is it ok to take moments about a point that is accelerating?
Do you even need to take moments, i.e. does the rod have mass?

The rod does have mass. The point was about the center of gravity of the combined rod/ball thing. l is the the distance from the pivot to the center of gravity. I needed a moment equation because I wanted to eliminate the [tex]Psin\theta-Ncos\theta[/tex] in the first equation.

I don't really know if its ok to take moments about that point. I also don't understand the [tex]ml\ddot\theta[/tex] term in the first equation...
 
  • #4

for the sum of moments about the pendulum's COG, is the moment due to P negative and the moment due to N positive?
 
  • #5
theone said:
for the sum of moments about the pendulum's COG, is the moment due to P negative and the moment due to N positive?
With the usual anticlockwise convention, yes.
 
  • #6
haruspex said:
With the usual anticlockwise convention, yes.
For the first equation, which two terms did you identify as wrong? Is it the P and N terms?
 
  • #7
theone said:
For the first equation, which two terms did you identify as wrong? Is it the P and N terms?
In each of the terms involving a trig function, the other factor is related to acceleration or force in either the vertical or horizontal direction. You should expect that all of one direction take cos, and all of the other direction take sin.
 
  • #8
haruspex said:
In each of the terms involving a trig function, the other factor is related to acceleration or force in either the vertical or horizontal direction. You should expect that all of one direction take cos, and all of the other direction take sin.

But for P and mg, which are in opposite directions, I am getting the result that both are sin
 

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  • #9
theone said:
But for P and mg, which are in opposite directions, I am getting the result that both are sin
They're both vertical, so should match the same trig function.
 
  • #10
haruspex said:
They're both vertical, so should match the same trig function.
so is the final answer including the signs correct: [tex]Psin\theta-mgsin\theta-Ncos\theta=m\ddot x cos\theta+ml\ddot\theta[/tex]
 
  • #11
theone said:
so is the final answer including the signs correct: [tex]Psin\theta-mgsin\theta-Ncos\theta=m\ddot x cos\theta+ml\ddot\theta[/tex]
Not quite. The left hand side appears to be taking up and.left as positive, the right hand side down and right as positive.
 
  • #12
haruspex said:
Not quite. The left hand side appears to be taking up and.left as positive, the right hand side down and right as positive.

I meant for the [tex]mg\ddot x cos\theta[/tex] to be negative. Is that the only mistake
 
  • #13
theone said:
I meant for the [tex]mg\ddot x cos\theta[/tex] to be negative. Is that the only mistake
What about the ##ml\ddot \theta## term? Also, you said the rod has mass, so that should be in the equation, and you need a contribution from the torsion spring.
 
  • #14
haruspex said:
What about the ##ml\ddot \theta## term? Also, you said the rod has mass, so that should be in the equation, and you need a contribution from the torsion spring.

for the rod mass, I considered the rod and ball a single object. Is that ok?
I don't know what the contribution from the torsion spring is. and like I said earlier, I don't really understand the ##ml\ddot \theta## term
 
  • #15
theone said:
for the rod mass, I considered the rod and ball a single object. Is that ok?
I don't know what the contribution from the torsion spring is. and like I said earlier, I don't really understand the ##ml\ddot \theta## term
The ##ml\ddot \theta## term is the acceleration of the mass (in the tangential direction) relative to the acceleration of the block.
The torsion spring applies a torque. What is the relationship between force and torque?
If you are considering the ball and mass as one object, then you need to figure out the mass centre of the combination and see how that affects the ##ml\ddot \theta## term and the torsion spring tem.
 
  • #16
haruspex said:
The ##ml\ddot \theta## term is the acceleration of the mass (in the tangential direction) relative to the acceleration of the block.
The torsion spring applies a torque. What is the relationship between force and torque?
If you are considering the ball and mass as one object, then you need to figure out the mass centre of the combination and see how that affects the ##ml\ddot \theta## term and the torsion spring tem.
The spring applies ##{K_t\theta}## of torque , so then the force it applies is ##\frac{K_t\theta}{l}##, with l being the length of the rod from the pivot to the combined COG?
 
  • #17
theone said:
The spring applies ##{K_t\theta}## of torque , so then the force it applies is ##\frac{K_t\theta}{L}##, with L being the total length of the rod?
That's the force applied to the mass, if the rod is massless. But as I wrote, if you consider the mass and rod as a single unit, you need to deal in terms of their common mass centre, and how far that will be from the joint.
 
  • #18
haruspex said:
That's the force applied to the mass, if the rod is massless. But as I wrote, if you consider the mass and rod as a single unit, you need to deal in terms of their common mass centre, and how far that will be from the joint.

So is it...
[tex]Psin\theta-mgsin\theta-Ncos\theta+\frac{K_t \theta}{l}=m\ddot x cos\theta-ml\ddot \theta cos\theta[/tex]

with l being the distance from the base of the pivot to the combined object's COG?
The force due to the torsional spring acts perpendicular to the length of the rod, right?
 
Last edited:
  • #19
theone said:
So is it...
[tex]Psin\theta-mgsin\theta-Ncos\theta+\frac{K_t \theta}{l}=m\ddot x cos\theta-ml\ddot \theta cos\theta[/tex]

with l being the distance from the base of the pivot to the combined object's COG?
The force due to the torsional spring acts perpendicular to the length of the rod, right?
Yes, except that you've made the ##m\ddot x## term positive again (you said it was meant to be negative), and you've introduced a cos factor on the ##\ddot \theta## term.
 
  • #20
haruspex said:
Yes, except that you've made the ##m\ddot x## term positive again (you said it was meant to be negative), and you've introduced a cos factor on the ##\ddot \theta## term.

thanks
and finally, does the force due to the torsional spring act up and left or down and right? In the equation above, I put it as up and left.
And also, if I were to take a force balance on the cart, would I need to include anything other than P and N to account for the torsional spring?
 
  • #21
theone said:
thanks
and finally, does the force due to the torsional spring act up and left or down and right? In the equation above, I put it as up and left.
up and left
theone said:
And also, if I were to take a force balance on the cart, would I need to include anything other than P and N to account for the torsional spring?
Yes, the torque from the spring reacts on the block exactly opposite to its torque on the arm. This is in addition to P and N.
 

Related to Help with free body diagram for a pendulum

1. How do I draw a free body diagram for a pendulum?

To draw a free body diagram for a pendulum, you will need to identify all the forces acting on the pendulum. These include the weight of the pendulum, the tension force from the string, and air resistance (if any). Draw a dot to represent the pendulum's mass and arrows to represent each force acting on it, with the direction of the arrow indicating the direction of the force. Make sure to label each force appropriately.

2. What is the purpose of a free body diagram for a pendulum?

The purpose of a free body diagram for a pendulum is to visually represent the forces acting on the pendulum. This allows us to analyze the motion of the pendulum and understand how the forces affect its movement. It is a useful tool in solving problems related to pendulums.

3. How do the forces on a pendulum change as it swings?

As a pendulum swings, the forces acting on it change. At the highest point of its swing, the only force acting on the pendulum is its weight. As it moves downwards, the tension force from the string increases while the weight decreases. At the lowest point of its swing, the tension force is at its maximum and the weight is at its minimum. As the pendulum swings back up, the forces reverse and the tension force decreases while the weight increases.

4. What is the relationship between a pendulum's mass and the forces acting on it?

The forces acting on a pendulum are independent of its mass. This means that a pendulum with a larger mass will experience the same forces as a pendulum with a smaller mass. However, a pendulum with a larger mass will have a greater inertia, which affects its motion and period (time for one swing).

5. How does air resistance affect a pendulum's motion?

Air resistance can affect a pendulum's motion by slowing it down. As the pendulum swings, it displaces air molecules which create a resistance force. This force increases with the pendulum's speed and can cause the pendulum to lose energy and slow down over time. This is why pendulums in a vacuum can swing for a longer period of time compared to those in the presence of air.

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