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ImAnEngineer
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A set S is countable if it is either finite or denumerable. What I don't understand is why S can be finite but not denumerable. Could anyone give an example?
ImAnEngineer said:I don't think that answers my question. You've shown that a denumerable set is not finite, but I wanted to see the reverse; how a finite set can be not denumerable (if possible with an example of such a set).
That makes a lot of sense.slider142 said:Every finite set is denumerable, but not all denumerable sets are finite. The class of finite sets is properly contained within the class of denumerable sets.
ImAnEngineer said:That makes a lot of sense.
Maybe it's just a language issue. If I read something is either A or B, I interpret it as it being one or the other and never both (so A and not B, or B and not A). Apparently this is a misinterpretation... English is not my mother tongue.
ImAnEngineer said:This brings me to a new question. I was wondering if this is a correct argument:
If S is finite, then |S|<|N|, so there exists a function f:N->S such that f is onto.
Is this argument correct? How can the implication f:N->S => f is onto be proven?
I know that 'or' in mathematics is always "inclusive or", however in this sentence it says "either...or".slider142 said:In mathematics (logic), 'or' without qualification is always "inclusive or". It means A or B or both. Exclusive or has to be explicitly said: "excluding both", or the use of xor. Read more here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_disjunctionThe Oxford English Dictionary explains “either … or” as follows:
The primary function of either, etc., is to emphasize the indifference of the two (or more) things or courses … but a secondary function is to emphasize the mutual exclusiveness, = either of the two, but not both.
I don't think this is possible if the elements of S are unknown... correct?slider142 said:By explicit construction. Ie., wrap N around S as if the elements of S were identified with points on the unit circle.
ImAnEngineer said:I know that 'or' in mathematics is always "inclusive or", however in this sentence it says "either...or".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_disjunction
ImAnEngineer said:I don't think this is possible if the elements of S are unknown... correct?
slider142 said:By explicit construction. Ie., wrap N around S as if the elements of S were identified with points on the unit circle.
In that case I am not sure what you mean by wrapping N around S as if the elements of S were identified with points on the unit circle. Could you elaborate a little bit more?slider142 said:The actual elements of S are not relevant to f. Use the definition of countable to construct f. If that is the definition your book gives above, then use the definitions of "finite" and "denumerable".
ImAnEngineer said:In that case I am not sure what you mean by wrapping N around S as if the elements of S were identified with points on the unit circle. Could you elaborate a little bit more?
I've thought about it for a while and I think I get your point. Though it is still not clear to me if/how you've proven that |S|<|N| implies that there exists a function f:S->N such that f is onto. But it's past midnight for me so my brain isn't fully functioning. I'll take another look at it tomorrow and then I'll probably post another reply.slider142 said:It was meant to be visual stimulus only, but it can be made symbolically explicit. Let |S| = n. Consider the regular n-gon inscribed in the unit circle. Label the vertices of this n-gon 1, ..., n. Wrap N around the unit circle by composing f(x) = (x mod n) + 1 with [tex]g(x) = \left(\cos\left(\frac{2\pi x}{n}\right), \sin\left(\frac{2\pi x}{n}\right)\right)[/tex] so we have [itex]h:\mathbb{N}\rightarrow S^1:x \mapsto g(f(x))[/itex]. Let p be the bijection between S and the set {1, ..., n} in N, then let k be the map [itex]k = p^{-1}\circ g^{-1} \circ g \circ f = p^{-1}\circ f[/itex]. k is the map being sought.
The previous argument is much better when drawn on a board as actually wrapping N around a unit circle instead of looking at the resultant symbolic function.
Actually, you can define a finite set in the following way:ImAnEngineer said:This brings me to a new question. I was wondering if this is a correct argument:
If S is finite, then |S|<|N|, so there exists a function f:N->S such that f is onto.
Is this argument correct? How can the implication f:N->S => f is onto be proven?
blkqi said:Actually, you can define a finite set in the following way:
A set A is finite iff there exists a natural number n and bijection [tex]f: \![\![1,n]\!]\!] \to A[/tex]
where here [tex] \![\![1,n\!]\!] := \{1,2,...,n\}\subset \mathbb{N}.[/tex]
So your implication that such a surjection exists is certainly correct.
Finite, countable and uncountable sets
If the axiom of choice holds, the law of trichotomy holds for cardinality. Thus we can make the following definitions:
* Any set X with cardinality less than that of the natural numbers, or | X | < | N |, is said to be a finite set.
ImAnEngineer said:A set S is countable if it is either finite or denumerable. What I don't understand is why S can be finite but not denumerable. Could anyone give an example?
the law of "trichotomy" is equivalent with the axiom of choice (in ZFC at least) so there is a redundancy there- the axiom of choice will suffice.ImAnEngineer said:I think the answer to my previous question is probably quite complicated.
On wikipedia I found:So apparently it follows from the axiom of choice and the law of trichotomy, and I'm not familiar with either of them, so I'll sort that out first.
A finite set is a set with a specific, limited number of elements, while a denumerable set is a set with an infinite number of elements that can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with the set of natural numbers.
A set is finite if it can be counted and the counting process will eventually end. A set is denumerable if it can be counted using the natural numbers and the counting process will never end.
No, a set cannot be both finite and denumerable. A set can only be classified as either finite or denumerable.
An example of a finite set is a set of the days of the week (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, etc.). There are only seven elements in this set, making it finite.
An example of a denumerable set is the set of all positive even integers (2, 4, 6, 8, etc.). This set can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with the set of natural numbers, making it denumerable.